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Exalted Shop Prices - Manacle and Coin 3rd edition

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Do new faces in major cities have to pay money to start bar tabs, so you know its not just a drifter looking for a free meal before ditching town? Or do they run on faith and the assumption you will get your legs busted for ditching?
    That's exactly when you're expected to spend coin. And if your coin is too large for individual transactions, you can pay a legitimate business up front to establish a line of credit for smaller purchases.


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    • #47
      Yeah. Something to think is that eight of dinar probably gets you room and board fora week and might even get you a lot of food and drink that might just be part of the tab. Thinka bout how in a lot of hotels the nicer it is, the more likely you have to pay for the wifi :/


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      • #48
        Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post
        That's exactly when you're expected to spend coin. And if your coin is too large for individual transactions, you can pay a legitimate business up front to establish a line of credit for smaller purchases.
        I guess, though the thing there is it begs the question of how the three different places you used your 1/8 dinar credit line at settle with the place who opened it for you, and most answers to that question have a funny habit of eventually becoming currencies.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
          I guess, though the thing there is it begs the question of how the three different places you used your 1/8 dinar credit line at settle with the place who opened it for you
          ... via credit? Given that this line of discussion started from the postulate that residents functioning within a shared community habitually settle transactions via credit rather than hard currency, I don't grasp how this is a question.

          Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
          and most answers to that question have a funny habit of eventually becoming currencies.
          It's been three years since I did the research for the finance sections of The Realm, so I'm not equipped to debate the matter. But my understanding is that you are arguing from a false assumption here, and that credit systems are indeed capable of functioning effectively in the absence of hard currency.


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          • #50
            Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
            most answers to that question have a funny habit of eventually becoming currencies.
            ​Correlation is not causation; the gradual transition from personal scale transactions being mediated by currency exchange rather than credit aligns more with the growth of communities and economies than the idea that credit has a severe shortcoming.

            ​And the development of information technology has a lot of people coming back around to primarily performing their transactions through debit and credit simply because of the convenience of it.

            ​I mean, the idea that there's a dissonance between currency and credit... you know the stereotype of the elderly person talking about how much you could purchase for a nickel? Do you think they're supposed to have bought all of that stuff at the same time?


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            • #51
              I'm mostly thinking of the history of banknotes and their evolution from (other) credit instruments here. Basically, it starts with you using that prepaid tab with Joe Banker to square with Jane Innkeeper. Then later Jane Innkeeper's borrowing/buying something from someone else and tells them "Don't worry, Joe Banker owes me [X]..." Soon enough that slice of your tab is being passed around in such a way that it might as well be a coin. Throw a receipt of some kind into the mix and suddenly you have a full-fledged silver-backed cash system if this kind of thing happens enough (e.g.- if place in question gets enough traffic from drifters all making use of Joe Banker).

              To put it differently, I'm not saying that credit is never sufficient to cover all use cases so much as that the line between credit and currency is often much fuzzier than most people think.

              That said, it sounds like The Realm is in fact going to have a more in-depth discussion of so-called (by Core) "informal economics?" If so I might just be able to hold out for that instead of having to resort to the previously-mentioned homebrew Guild copper standard...
              Last edited by Sith_Happens; 02-24-2018, 06:35 AM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Eric Minton View Post

                That's exactly when you're expected to spend coin. And if your coin is too large for individual transactions, you can pay a legitimate business up front to establish a line of credit for smaller purchases.
                very interesting and useful! They don't have computers or phones I'm assuming then there is some system of a receipt that is signed or stamped to keep track of credit expenditures, or the credit is local enough to keep track of with daily visits.

                I wish I had some movie scenes that did this type of thing to help shape my mind. I like this type of thing in my roleplay, that's a big reason why its been fun to keep a rough track of characters money so they can have fun bargaining, stealing and pissing away.


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                • #53
                  If I remember right, Debt: the First 5,000 Years is pretty valuable in all of this discussion, and reading that does a lot to make Creation's currency systems make a lot of sense.


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                  • #54
                    I think some of this subject needs to consider how big communities are, and how much latitude people generally have to move very far from them.

                    Like, there's a reason that neighbourhoods in Nexus are provincial to the point that they sometimes get into turf wars.

                    ​While still maintaining the subject of how large economies are; what things cost and how they're paid for is really dependent on what the capacity for manufacturing and transportation of goods is. What kind of money people need can be dependent on how often regular people are expected to buy things.

                    ​Probably the cheapest purchase I can make at the local corner shop is for a chocolate bar; it costs chump change, and can be done so casually as to be basically meaningless. Consider the manufacturing and logistics stream behind a chocolate bar even being a thing, let alone many things. Think about how much of that doesn't exist in Creation.


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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                      To put it differently, I'm not saying that credit is never sufficient to cover all use cases so much as that the line between credit and currency is often much fuzzier than most people think.
                      A fair point, and currency tokens are absolutely a thing in appropriate Threshold locales.

                      Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                      That said, it sounds like The Realm is in fact going to have a more in-depth discussion of so-called (by Core) "informal economics?" If so I might just be able to hold out for that instead of having to resort to the previously-mentioned homebrew Guild copper standard...
                      Unfortunately, there was neither opportunity nor word count to provide an in-depth discussion of credit in The Realm. (And the book doesn't cover tokens at all; yen fractions ought to be small enough to minimize the need for smaller informal currency.) The book is overstuffed as it is; we had to persuade Onyx Path to provide additional word count over the original outline in order to try and fit everything in.


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                      • #56
                        People tend to not understand just how valuable things are when they have to be made by hand. And, in this case, 'made by hand" doesn't just mean that the finished product is made by artisans, it also means the raw materials have to be gathered and processed by hand, in order to be turned into the finished product.

                        An afteraffect of living after the Industrial Revolution, basically.

                        Let us, for example, take a basic shirt. In the modern day, this would likely be made out of high-yield cotton (genetically modified to produce large amounts of raw cotton, while being resistant to environmental effects, insects and disease), gathered via machine (at least in industrialized nations), processed via machine, and spun into cloth via machine. The ability to industrialize cloth production is the reason why you can afford multiple changes of clothing, and buy a T-shirt for a dollar or so. Coincidentally, cloth-making was also one of the first industries to, well, industrialize.

                        Go back 1000, or hell, even 400 years, to before the Industrial Revolution, and you will see things that are veeeerrrryyyyyy different.

                        In Viking Age Iceland, the production of cloth and clothing was, arguably, the most valuable export Iceland had. Trade was largely based on lengths of homespun woolen cloth, used as a measure of value.

                        Passing over the time and effort put into raising sheep or cultivating flax, it is estimated that it would take around 35 hours to make enough thread for one day's worth of weaving, and a skilled weaver could produce about half a square yard of cloth in a day. All that before dying or sewing or decorating.

                        http://www.hurstwic.org/history/arti...ing.htm#making

                        Stuff.Ain't.Cheap.

                        That cup of beer you drink is the concentrated effort of weeks of ground clearing, plowing, tilling, weeding, seeding and harvesting of grain, and then the malting, boiling and fermenting of said grain into a tasty beverage. That bread you eat is the result of a similar process. That guy's shirt you ripped in the traditional barfight is the result of days, if not weeks, of work outlined above. That iron knife on your belt, the one you pulled in the fight (because you were drunk), is the result of hours of refining and working iron into a usable shape, not to mention the gathering of ore and charcoal.

                        That grave the militia threw you in, after you were executed for stabbing someone in a drunken brawl? Only an hour or so of work. So.... graves are cheap, I guess.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Boston123 View Post
                          People tend to not understand just how valuable things are when they have to be made by hand. And, in this case, 'made by hand" doesn't just mean that the finished product is made by artisans, it also means the raw materials have to be gathered and processed by hand, in order to be turned into the finished product.
                          ​There's a reason that, of all the spices, saffron is the one that remains comparatively expensive.

                          ​I wonder... the thing with machines would be the idea that, even when their own manufacture and maintenance is highly expensive, it's less then what the expense of paying a work force that would have the same kind of manufacturing output would be (with the caveat that there is a point at which it becomes impossible for humans to have the same kind of output, because it's not just about volume, but rate).

                          ​Which gets back into my point about how economies can be stifled by the limit on just how much stuff there is to even buy. There's no point circulating a lot of currency when there's not enough to spend it on.

                          ​On a side note, you know what doesn't come up often in these kinds of discussions? How much stuff in a pre-modern economy is going to be second- or third-hand, or kept going through varying states of disrepair.

                          ​That knife your bar brawler is stabbin' folks with? I'd put even odds on that being something a bit knicked and rusty that was picked up on the cheap from a rag and bones man, who was able to get it for a song because somebody a couple of steps up the social ladder wanted to get rid of an old knife or treat themselves to a shiny new one, and was willing to part with it for a lot less than they got it for because that was years ago and it's a minor item and they're not looking to flip it for a profit.

                          ​Well, I say "pre-modern" with regards to my own cultural context. In the total global economy, a lot of industrial products wind up second-hand in places that have certain economic disparities.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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