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Can Neomah help a woman get pregnant?

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  • #16
    Awesome answers and discussion everyone. I've posted another question related to this in a more general sense.
    Last edited by Tytalus; 03-09-2018, 04:12 PM. Reason: Spelling.

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    • #17
      Given that the Realms biggest fear is demon possessed super-beings, Anethema, I can't imagine them being big fans of demon engineered franken-babies either.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Elfive View Post
        "Go get a Neomah" has been confirmed as the go-to solution for DB couples who are unable to reproduce together naturally (for example, if they're the same sex) in 3E.
        It's probably more accurate to say that adopting an orphan from within your house or making use of a surrogate parent are the go to methods, although neomah and other sorcerous shenanigans do see use.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          I do think that, as Isator mentioned Eric mentioned, the very occasional strange or tainted child should exist, and they will become cautionary tales that encourage stereotypes. Partly because it's just interesting.
          Honestly...

          ​In prior Editions, whether it was First's "the child is a bit strange" or Second's "the child is kind of a monster" it was still the result of a botch, coding for being exceedingly rare...

          ​And yet, it still gets a disproportionate amount of discussion. It's weird, so it takes precedence in people's minds.

          ​And as I said, I think there's a value to the idea that neomah creation of children to order can be safe, can be reliable.

          At least, when what you put into it isn't outside the norm.

          So I want there to be emphasis on the Third Edition rendition of that power, the balance between "two parents is fine" and "more than two, or mixing species, has an incentive".


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Salagimsim View Post
            Western cultures have cultural aversion to eugenics (due to the World Wars) and religious aversion (even pre-World Wars).
            ​Also a scientific aversion, because genetics doesn't work that way.


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            • #21
              I mean, you can theoretically select for certain traits in humans just like with any other animal.

              It's just that doing so requires treating people like, well, livestock.

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              • #22
                The dark secret bat just keeps swinging tonight.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                  I mean, you can theoretically select for certain traits in humans just like with any other animal.
                  Originally posted by Elfive View Post

                  It's just that doing so requires treating people like, well, livestock.

                  ​You can select for largely superficial and socially insignificant traits.

                  ​Like, maybe if you ensured that people with a predisposition to build muscle mass more quickly repeatedly had children with one another, you would wind up with people who ultimately have a slightly better capacity to build muscle mass. Eventually. After multiple generations (human generations are a good deal longer than those of livestock; for example, pigs take about three months between birth and sexual maturity, meaning that you can expect selective breeding to show significant results within just a few years. It's actually remarkably difficult to treat humans like livestock when the time it takes for a human to reach sexual maturity is about the same length of time it takes for livestock to grow old and die).

                  ​At the end of which you have... what? Slightly stronger humans? To what purpose that can't be fulfilled by things like machines, livestock or multiple humans working in concert?

                  ​That and how, at least in the modern age, that's a more practically achievable goal via the use of various drugs. Sure they're often illegal, but if we're weighing different brands of unethical practice against each other.

                  ​But still, as human traits go, trying to determine those through something as simple as pair bonding is pretty difficult because the manner in which traits emerge from gene expressions is highly complex, there are vast numbers of possible genetic combinations from the chromosomes provided by both parents, unexpressed alleles actually remain in your body and can be passed down unexpectedly to your descendants (which is why dark haired people can occasionally have blonde or red haired children, and there are documented cases of white people having dark skinned children), gene expression can be affected by various environmental factors, and random mutation can make heredity a bit of a crapshoot.

                  ​Sure, these are technically concerns for all life, but human beings have complexities to their genetics that make some of the aspects more pronounced.

                  ​Never mind that eugenics is frequently an expression of cultural biases or observations of traits that came from cultural background, that were attributed to genetics at a time when that was the poorly understood new hotness, and because intellectual trends of the time were really up on giving a pseudoscientific basis for their bigotry after shit like phrenology had been discredited.

                  In short, even if you could control people's behaviour to that extent, eugenics is incredibly dumb.


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                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                  • #24
                    Also, Salagimsim, you don't actually have to "cut off (half-a-baby) of your own flesh." A Neomah possesses the capacity to make an infant entirely out of semen or menstrual blood if she wants.

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                    • #25
                      I mean if the neomah doesn't pull out I don't see why not.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                        Also, Salagimsim, you don't actually have to "cut off (half-a-baby) of your own flesh." A Neomah possesses the capacity to make an infant entirely out of semen or menstrual blood if she wants.
                        Interesting.

                        1E Games of Divinity wrote "Neomah can create children from random collections of flesh — a male’s seed and a woman’s menstrual fluid being optimal."


                        2E Core (pg 310-311) removed that. Flesh is said like a half-dozen times, but "seed and fluid" none. I figured "meat".
                        • Plus it still needs "enough material" - so if an average baby boy is 6.7-8.1lbs, that is a lot of "seed and fluid" to gather (without refrigeration)!
                        • Plus each additional donor applies a +1 difficulty. No "Dragon-Blooded orgies with ivory chalices" to gather seed fast.
                        • Plus despite rolling Compassion + Craft [Flesh], she explicitly doesn't have a Craft Excellency.
                        Hence why it felt much more difficulty. The fact that a neomah "may be called into Creation without summoning by the mingled tears of parents mixing with the afterbirth of a stillborn baby" made me imagine "oh cool - stillborn child, weeping parents - and suddenly a knock on the door promises to "restore" the baby (use it's flesh to make a new one) if you're able to give the Neomah her own fair share.


                        3E is now the easiest. First time I see "fingernails" listed, so now you can just save the clippings of a single Exalt in a jug.


                        I'll still hope for cultural & religious motivators to not mass-produce Neomah babies. But you're right.
                        Last edited by Salagimsim; 03-10-2018, 06:49 AM.


                        Through indiscriminate suffering men know fear and fear is the most divine emotion.
                        It is the stones for altars and the beginning of wisdom.
                        Half gods are worshipped in wine and flowers. Real gods require blood.
                        - Their Eyes Were Watching God

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                        • #27
                          Okay, what makes you think it requires an entire baby's weight in material, or would need to refrigerate it?
                          Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-10-2018, 09:20 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Salagimsim View Post
                            The fact that a neomah "may be called into Creation without summoning by the mingled tears of parents mixing with the afterbirth of a stillborn baby" made me imagine "oh cool - stillborn child, weeping parents - and suddenly a knock on the door promises to "restore" the baby (use it's flesh to make a new one) if you're able to give the Neomah her own fair share.
                            ​That still sounds like it works.

                            Originally posted by Salagimsim
                            First time I see "fingernails" listed, so now you can just save the clippings of a single Exalt in a jug.
                            ​Well, look at what was said earlier in this thread; Vance saying that it's not really in the spirit of things to keep and store materials in the long term, or provide them on behalf of another.

                            Originally posted by Salagimsim
                            I'll still hope for cultural & religious motivators to not mass-produce Neomah babies.
                            ​I'd say lack of access is one thing. Plus how neomah craft babies using the craft rules; those might be largely abstracted in a few cases, but there's still at least a sense that they've got limited energy to repeatedly manufacture products.


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                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                              Okay, what makes you think it requires an entire baby's weight in material, or would need to refrigerate it?
                              1E, Games of Divinity, writes "...for a piece of their flesh. When a neomah has accumulated enough flesh..."

                              2E, Core, writes ".......perform any sensual act, in exchange for a piece of flesh." and "...for a week or more, until the neomah has gathered enough flesh to be stitched together into a small creature..."

                              3E, Core, writes "When it has collected enough materials, it casts them together..."



                              If Neomah worked like a DNA lab - then they could wipe their payment off their own chins. So why even bother asking if their clients are "willing to pay the neomah's price"?

                              Neomah don't want the death of participants - but if you reduce their price to so little - they quit being creepy-but-sexy demons and instead turned into purple-skinned psychotic-one-night-stands, whose "price" is to pluck hair from your old comb; who scavenge loose toenail clippings from a sorcerer's room; or who simply tries to get you to slobber on her (most DNA tests work with just spit - how's that for "flesh" if you need so little). Neomah's would all travel South, haunting the beaches in hopes of finding dead skin from sunburns.

                              I'm not exaggerating. There was a case a few years ago - in which oral sex led to a pregnancy. The TLDR, a woman gave a guy a blowjob - then used "his seed" to impregnate herself - and then she tried to demand $800 a month in child support.

                              So why question if a client is "willing to pay the price" - if a Neomah can just give out free BJs and spit their payment out?

                              It would all be very inconsistent.

                              All 3 editions describe (accumulating/gathering/collecting) enough (flesh/materials). They stitch "flesh" into babies. There is no womb where a few cells gestate - no source of "nutrients and materials" from which an embryo can grow itself. These babies have to be made whole, like if you're crafting a doll.



                              The 6-8lbs of material leads to the refrigeration issue. Warning: Math

                              According to the World Health Organization, men average 3.7ml of baby gravy per pop.
                              You need 3.7L to get 0.00082 lbs of mass - or conversely, 453.6 donors for 1lb.
                              So you need 2722 (for 6lb), 3175 (for 7lb) or 3629 (for 8lb) donors at your orgy.
                              For comparison, the world record for largest gang-bang was 919 guys in 1 day at the 2004 Polish Eroticon.

                              So if you tackle "getting enough material" via "just add more donors", you're talking about...
                              ....a 2-4 day one-Neomah orgy with 2-4K fairly irreligious Terrestrials and a baby-crafting roll at 2-4K difficulty.

                              That poor Neomah.

                              The alternative is one very devoted Exalt - if they could refrigerate their "payment", it would take...
                              ...7.45 years (for 6lb), 8.69 years (for 7lb) or 9.94 years (for 8lb).
                              If a Terrestrial faps into a jug for 10 years - can we all agree that refrigeration is a requirement to avoid spoilage?

                              Does anyone actually believe a Terrestrial will fap daily for a decade to produce 1 baby?



                              That's the logistics of it.

                              All 3 editions require "enough" material (6-8lbs) to produce grown babies - not mere embryos.

                              All 3 editions favor fewer donor parents - the difficulty skyrockets if you only gather tiny bits from many clients.

                              If a tiny sample was sufficient - then Neomah's could create entire babies via free BJs. No horror implied.

                              The quantitative-requirements for materials are what prevent really crazy multiplicative abuses.


                              Through indiscriminate suffering men know fear and fear is the most divine emotion.
                              It is the stones for altars and the beginning of wisdom.
                              Half gods are worshipped in wine and flowers. Real gods require blood.
                              - Their Eyes Were Watching God

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                              • #30
                                I think one of the huge obstacles to "lets have a Neomah make us a hundred babies so we can have a lot more chances of an Exalted child" is that raising and educating a Dynast is freaking expensive.

                                Families are not gonna be able to cover the costs of schooling, private tutors, Artifact treasures, allowances, clothing and finery, servants and so on to Realm standards for a whole bunch of kids at once during the approximately 10 to 20 years it ill take to even find out which ones Exalt.

                                Likewise, I think a lineage outside the realm wouldn't embark on a "DB making stratagem" to have severely undertrained, uneducated champions or rulers and the cost of raising would become a huge obstacle as well.


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