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  • #16
    Good end for who?


    Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade

    Senator of the Greater Chamber

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mizu View Post
      Good end for who?

      People who would rather not have Mnemon or a Ragara backed Empress.

      Speaking of "Good Ends" and them never happening, out of our current group of Named NPCs, which is the Ned Stark that gets killed at the end of Season One? To be explicit, our seeming Protagonist character that appeals to modern morals enough for the "audience" to like them, but they get killed kicking off the events.


      Raksha are my fae-vorite.

      Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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      • #18
        I’m hard pressed to think of anyone high ranked in the Realm who appeals to our country nventional morals like you mean. Cathak Cainan loosely... maybe the acting Tepet matriarch?


        Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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        • #19
          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
          I’m hard pressed to think of anyone high ranked in the Realm who appeals to our country nventional morals like you mean. Cathak Cainan loosely... maybe the acting Tepet matriarch?

          You hit that nearly on the head. House Tepet was Ned Stark, executed by Sesus, and Season 1 is already over.

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          • #20
            Hmmm.... Assuming relationships in matthias' doodles roughly equate to a three level political distance, where red=3, blue=2, green=1 and self=0, and filling in gaps in the matrix with the median value (1.6) as a sort of general entropic level of hatred, then neighbour joining net is: https://imgur.com/dOFe6Y3

            Main direction is Mnemon vs Sesus-Ragara. (Of course rotated so Mnemon is on the right because, well, with the OP, how can I not?).

            Assume instead the gaps are filled in with 2.5, and the lack of relationship is somewhere distance levels 3 and 2, and instead: https://imgur.com/8Qt7j9G

            This has the effect of pushing a more even plot where one axis is "Establishment" Houses who have lots of well defined alliances and connectivity with allies closer together opposed to a periphery.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
              Hmmm.... Assuming relationships in matthias' doodles roughly equate to a three level political distance, where red=3, blue=2, green=1 and self=0, and filling in gaps in the matrix with the median value (1.6) as a sort of general entropic level of hatred, then neighbour joining net is: https://imgur.com/dOFe6Y3

              Main direction is Mnemon vs Sesus-Ragara. (Of course rotated so Mnemon is on the right because, well, with the OP, how can I not?).

              Assume instead the gaps are filled in with 2.5, and the lack of relationship is somewhere distance levels 3 and 2, and instead: https://imgur.com/8Qt7j9G

              This has the effect of pushing a more even plot where one axis is "Establishment" Houses who have lots of well defined alliances and connectivity with allies closer together opposed to a periphery.
              This is deeply cool and makes me want to code more consistently and with more granularity - incorporating the alliances and rivalries that were more minor, things like Iselsi hating everyone. What'd you use to make that, R?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post


                That's even more clear than I thought it would be! I feel like I'm looking at one of those charts explaining how WW1 started.

                Seeing this, my new "ship" (for lack of a better term), is V'Neef consolidating power, and using their financial autonomy, in conjunction with Nellens financial autonomy, to rival Ragara.


                Oh... oh no. I'm rooting for the underdogs.
                Just as an aside, I started playing Europa Universalis recently and now the complicated web of alliances makes so much more sense. You're going to need that kind of thing when France, the Ottomans, and Austria/Hungary are all around you and eyeing your delicious well-formed land.


                ..."But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me"

                Message me for Japanese translations.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                  Let Team Establishment and Team Underhand tear each other apart, then Iselsi strikes from the shadows when both are at their most vulnerable, in the wake of which Tepet Ejava brings the Vermillion Legion to the Isle to restore order. V'neef is crowned "Queen Regent" (with the hypothetical idea that the Empress could return and she'd step aside, but no one expects that), and Tepet Ejava named Shogun. The age of the Two Roses begins.
                  This was pretty much how I saw the Realm Civil War shaking out in my game too, even before the new lore. I'm glad to see other people think it's plausible. =3



                  "The true object of all human life is play. Earth is a task garden; heaven is a playground." -G.K. Chesterton

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sagara View Post


                    You hit that nearly on the head. House Tepet was Ned Stark, executed by Sesus, and Season 1 is already over.
                    This is what I'd go with too. In a theoretical "Exalted: Game of Thrones" show, we'd have a sympathetic Tepet matriarch and her family act as our entry point to the series, with Tepet Ejava being an important secondary character and part of the matriarch's immediate family. The first season would end with the Battle of Futile Blood and our Tepet matriarch being personally betrayed and murdered by a Sesus or Ragara "ally," with Ejava rising into greater prominence as a focus character as the series continues.



                    "The true object of all human life is play. Earth is a task garden; heaven is a playground." -G.K. Chesterton

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Matthias View Post

                      This is deeply cool and makes me want to code more consistently and with more granularity - incorporating the alliances and rivalries that were more minor, things like Iselsi hating everyone. What'd you use to make that, R?
                      Thanks :0. Just used splitstree - http://www.splitstree.org

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                      • #26
                        I feel like this undersells how disliked Ragara probably is.

                        Like... okay, hands in the air. Who actually likes their creditors, even if they don't hate them? Ragara has an explicit policy of trying to put every other house in debt to them, and that's succeeded for the most part. Many if not most houses have in their writeup something along the lines of "oh yeah, they're barely covering the usury on their Ragara loans."

                        Like... Cathak, Nellens, and V'neef are not, technically speaking, enemies of Ragara, but Cathak is only just about covering their interest, and Ragara very explicitly has V'neef and Nellens targeted for "get our hooks into them." That all seems like it would contribute to a certain amount of bad blood.

                        More broadly speaking... I think Ragara's position might be quite a bit more tenuous than it appears on paper depending on how notional their wealth is and how dependent their cash flow is on usury on outstanding loans as opposed to actual talents of jade in their vaults. Ragara is portrayed as a banking house... but banks don't make money by keeping huge piles of lucre on hand. Banks make money by lending it out, and even very conservative banking institutions are often highly leveraged.

                        And this could put Ragara in a very tricky position, because debt is notional. A satrapy, and the physical assets you can strip out of it, is real. A manse is real. Ships are real. A legion is real. If you try and declare to House Cathak "your Legions do not exist" they'll just look at you funny. If you try and declare to House Peleps that their navy doesn't exist, the same. They don't, actually, require the cooperation of a counterparty to continue to be what they are.

                        Debt is a different story. Debts can be cancelled by fiat and there's not much a creditor can do about it unless they have sufficient real power to make the creditor cough up. Historically, many rulers of nation-states have declared their personal and political debts null and void, and their creditors had no choice but to just eat it.

                        If everything goes right to hell, there's a very good chance that literally every single house that isn't on Team Ragara when that happens simply decides to declare their debts null and void. That would be one of the first things I did if war kicked off. Why should I cut House Ragara a giant check every month when that money can be used to hire mercenaries or bribe neutral parties? What're they gonna do... file a lawsuit? You can't stop Sesus from having legions, but can you can stop forking over your jade. I mean, I am legitimately surprised Mnemon hasn't made "support me, and I'll declare a jubilee for you for all your Ragara debts" a major platform plank to woo supporters.

                        Having said all that... House Ragara isn't exactly a typical bank. They initially made their fortune tearing jade out of the earth and they have plenty of sidelines besides, in addition to wielding temporal power. So they are almost certainly far closer to the Iron Bank than they are to Washington Mutual even before you include the fact that each Great House is more like a small nation-state in and of itself.

                        But having said that... you'll note that Ragara's current list of friends and allies doesn't include anyone with a fleet. This will make protecting their economic interests... difficult. Team Mnemon has a fleet. Team Underdogs has a fleet. Team Dissolute Rich Backstabbers... does not have a fleet. Of any sort.

                        This is just me thinking out loud.
                        Last edited by Murcushio; 04-05-2018, 05:17 AM.


                        "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                          Hmmm.... Assuming relationships in matthias' doodles roughly equate to a three level political distance, where red=3, blue=2, green=1 and self=0, and filling in gaps in the matrix with the median value (1.6) as a sort of general entropic level of hatred, then neighbour joining net is: https://imgur.com/dOFe6Y3

                          Main direction is Mnemon vs Sesus-Ragara. (Of course rotated so Mnemon is on the right because, well, with the OP, how can I not?).

                          Assume instead the gaps are filled in with 2.5, and the lack of relationship is somewhere distance levels 3 and 2, and instead: https://imgur.com/8Qt7j9G

                          This has the effect of pushing a more even plot where one axis is "Establishment" Houses who have lots of well defined alliances and connectivity with allies closer together opposed to a periphery.

                          Make the file available. I want to study other political forces such as the Guild, the Immaculate Order, and the Legions.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                            I feel like this undersells how disliked Ragara probably is.

                            Like... okay, hands in the air. Who actually likes their creditors, even if they don't hate them? Ragara has an explicit policy of trying to put every other house in debt to them, and that's succeeded for the most part. Many if not most houses have in their writeup something along the lines of "oh yeah, they're barely covering the usury on their Ragara loans."

                            Like... Cathak, Nellens, and V'neef are not, technically speaking, enemies of Ragara, but Cathak is only just about covering their interest, and Ragara very explicitly has V'neef and Nellens targeted for "get our hooks into them." That all seems like it would contribute to a certain amount of bad blood.

                            More broadly speaking... I think Ragara's position might be quite a bit more tenuous than it appears on paper depending on how notional their wealth is and how dependent their cash flow is on usury on outstanding loans as opposed to actual talents of jade in their vaults. Ragara is portrayed as a banking house... but banks don't make money by keeping huge piles of lucre on hand. Banks make money by lending it out, and even very conservative banking institutions are often highly leveraged.

                            And this could put Ragara in a very tricky position, because debt is notional. A satrapy, and the physical assets you can strip out of it, is real. A manse is real. Ships are real. A legion is real. If you try and declare to House Cathak "your Legions do not exist" they'll just look at you funny. If you try and declare to House Peleps that their navy doesn't exist, the same. They don't, actually, require the cooperation of a counterparty to continue to be what they are.

                            Debt is a different story. Debts can be cancelled by fiat and there's not much a creditor can do about it unless they have sufficient real power to make the creditor cough up. Historically, many rulers of nation-states have declared their personal and political debts null and void, and their creditors had no choice but to just eat it.

                            If everything goes right to hell, there's a very good chance that literally every single house that isn't on Team Ragara when that happens simply decides to declare their debts null and void. That would be one of the first things I did if war kicked off. Why should I cut House Ragara a giant check every month when that money can be used to hire mercenaries or bribe neutral parties? What're they gonna do... file a lawsuit? You can't stop Sesus from having legions, but can you can stop forking over your jade. I mean, I am legitimately surprised Mnemon hasn't made "support me, and I'll declare a jubilee for you for all your Ragara debts" a major platform plank to woo supporters.

                            Having said all that... House Ragara isn't exactly a typical bank. They initially made their fortune tearing jade out of the earth and they have plenty of sidelines besides, in addition to wielding temporal power. So they are almost certainly far closer to the Iron Bank than they are to Washington Mutual even before you include the fact that each Great House is more like a small nation-state in and of itself.

                            But having said that... you'll note that Ragara's current list of friends and allies doesn't include anyone with a fleet. This will make protecting their economic interests... difficult. Team Mnemon has a fleet. Team Underdogs has a fleet. Team Dissolute Rich Backstabbers... does not have a fleet. Of any sort.

                            This is just me thinking out loud.
                            Apparently this will be further discussed in The Realm.

                            That said, Ragara has enough money to rent mercenaries, of which the threshold is full. They’ve also been doing freaky Occult experiments for centuries, so really who knows what surprises they have in their vaults? A Thousand Forged Dragon or a Warstider will change the balance of power significantly.

                            And...wars are expensive. Even if Peleps doesn’t want to go further in debt to Ragara, they might well need to borrow money from someone. And, if you walked away from your last debt, that hurts your “credit rating” with anyone else willing to lend to you. Plus, the only group in Creation that might have enough money to help fund a Great House is the Guild and the only upside they have over Ragara is that you’re unlikely to be at war with them tomorrow.

                            On the other hand, if you went to Ragara and said “Finance my army, and, when I am queen, I’ll ensure all your debts are still legal and give you a large cut of the spoils,” they might go for that. I don’t have to like someone to work with them.

                            Now, that said, if you can get proof of the depth of their blasphemous practices, and show it to everyone, they’ll be in Iselsi’s shoes in short order. Because tearing them apart is now the appropriate thing to do, gets you more holdings, and erases your debts.


                            ....

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                              I feel like this undersells how disliked Ragara probably is.
                              I thought of these relationships as neutral on net, because Ragara has strings they can pull on people, but those strings are resented. But obviously this isn't "neutral on net" in the sense of being null, it has huge effects across the board that I think you're largely correct on. One of the natural difficulties of compressing relationships into a single dimension!

                              It does seem broadly true, though, that the assets Seus-Ragara-Cynis can bring to bear are largely more useful in peacetime than when shit hits the fan. If nothing ever comes to a head, they could arguably keep increasing their position until they become roughly hegemonic - if I were them, I wouldn't be angling for putting Sesus Raenyah on the Scarlet Throne so much as making arrrangements for a semipermanent Regency with a Deliberative that takes over many functions (maybe with some constitutional protections on property to prevent their cancelling debts or ending the slave trade or something like that. So maybe they are the progressive faction after all - forced by the logic of the situation into inventing liberalism!) So they're a sort of anti-Roseblack in that sense.

                              Mnemon can probably counter this strategy outright by simply declaring herself Empress (or Acting Empress-Regent, or whatever) and proclaiming a jubilee that puts most of the Great Houses and all of the peasantry on her side. But there are a lot of tough questions in the exact timing and execution of such a thing, and she's probably weighing very carefully all the ways that could go wrong.

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                              • #30
                                Ragara-Sesus-Cynis bring late stage capitalism to the Realm. Their evil knows no bounds.


                                Raksha are my fae-vorite.

                                Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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