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Terrestrial VS Celestial: How big is the power gap now?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    True, but if you're using archery your best defence is for other people to be up close to the enemy while you're far away and don't have to worry about it.

    Not a perfect method of course, but what is?
    ...I'm talking about Melee Charms.


    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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    • #17
      You Ninja'd me, my response was to Ascension.


      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ascension View Post
        Air is still the Aura I'm most concerned about, since there are very few defensive Air Charms, particularly within the reach of starting characters. I guess they'll just have to lean on Excellencies or Martial Arts on defense for the most part.
        Or you can use Stealth Charms, most of which are Air.

        Air is the stealthy element, so it only makes sense that the Signature attacks available to Air Aspects work best as surprise attacks that rely upon Air's stealthiness.


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        • #19

          Off the top of my head, Dragon-Blooded are set below Solar Exalts by...
          • Smaller dice pools and lower dice caps
          • No free excellencies
          • Terrestrial and Mastery
          • Aura
          • Charms that are narrower in scope, more limited in use (reset conditions), lesser in magnitude
          • Lack of 3E-style perfects
          • XP levels for Essence
          • As I recall, there was at least one instance (maybe more) of fails-against-magic
          • DB fiction usually seems to involve a loss for every win, whereas the Solar fiction mostly involves clowning people left and right
          • (While not part of the calculation, they also lost some of the things from previous editions that helped to mitigate a bit of this, at least for a while, like superior artifact backgrounds and more skill points from a life of rigorous education.)
          That's a lot of work put into the power gap; and the gap strikes me as quite large. The lack of free excellencies feels like an exalted competence gap, which I've found to be kind of rough.
          Last edited by Equitable Remedy; 04-21-2018, 07:40 PM.

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          • #20
            Solars with a combat supernal stand a decent chance of going 5v1 with DBs still. The Heaven Sword Flash combo lets you wipe out a whole circle in a white room before they can even act, or at least enough of them to end the combat. DBs also don't have any of the insane damage boosting charms that Solars have, which means they're going to struggle peeling initiative out of one who's got a good soak and armor. They also have a tendency to have some of their more devastating effects locked behind things like needing 15+ initiative, or getting attacked a bunch of times but not being hit. Which against a Dawn is really unlikely to happen.

            Don't let any of this make you think DBs aren't powerful though, it's just that certain Solars are VERY powerful. Most Solar exalted, and even a good chunk of the more fighty ones, do not want to engage in a 5v1 against Dragonblooded. At essence 3 when the DBs have their signature charms even a 1v1 against an essence 1 Solar is dangerous. Where DBs really shine though is fighting things that aren't Solars. Gods, elementals, things that don't have the stuff like Fivefold Bulwark Stance, those are the people that really fear DBs.

            I will also say that it's definitely possible for a Wyld Hunt to fight even a very powerful Solar, which wasn't always true for 2e. You just need to be smart, sacrifice a lot, and wear them down.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
              I will also say that it's definitely possible for a Wyld Hunt to fight even a very powerful Solar, which wasn't always true for 2e. You just need to be smart, sacrifice a lot, and wear them down.
              I expect this to be the big difference. There was a point in 2e when DBs stopped being a threat, albeit a very high optimization-wise. Below it, however, Dragon-Blooded of superior Essence and gear could challenge even well-built Solar circles.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                True, but if you're using archery your best defence is for other people to be up close to the enemy while you're far away and don't have to worry about it.

                Not a perfect method of course, but what is?
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Or you can use Stealth Charms, most of which are Air.

                Air is the stealthy element, so it only makes sense that the Signature attacks available to Air Aspects work best as surprise attacks that rely upon Air's stealthiness.
                "Ninja" and "Archer" are both very specific builds, and neither explains a character like, say, Tepet Arada.

                Actually, it'll be very interesting to see how Arada is statted in Heirs to the Shogunate, since he does now canonically have two Solar kills in melee combat.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ascension View Post
                  "Ninja" and "Archer" are both very specific builds, and neither explains a character like, say, Tepet Arada.
                  Tepet Arada doesn't need Air Aura for any Melee Charm besides Steel Tempest Strike, and he can get an Air Aura by having any Aura at all when he reaches iconic anima flare.

                  He might not even know Steel Tempest Strike, but instead have chosen one of the other four Melee Signature Charms. Unless he's Essence 5, he wouldn't qualify to learn a second.

                  Mela's Flashing Tongue is the only other Air-aspected Melee Charm, and it doesn't require Air Aura for anything but a little extra power that you don't always want to use, anyway.

                  Elemental Sheath and Dragon-Graced Weapon, as well as his own Air Aspect anima powers, can also be used to achieve Air Aura, especially since so many basic Melee Charms are Balanced.


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ascension View Post
                    "Ninja" and "Archer" are both very specific builds, and neither explains a character like, say, Tepet Arada.

                    Actually, it'll be very interesting to see how Arada is statted in Heirs to the Shogunate, since he does now canonically have two Solar kills in melee combat.
                    Not on his own. There's a tremendous difference in the combat capability required to fight a duel against a fully prepped and ready combat-oriented Solar and what's required to finish one off after he's blown all his essence and initiative on your friends. Not that Arada isn't a badass who would threaten a Solar 1v1, but the circumstances of those fights are pretty important.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Equitable Remedy View Post
                      [*]As I recall, there was at least one instance (maybe more) of fails-against-magic
                      ​Can you recall it specifically?

                      Originally posted by Equitable Remedy
                      like superior artifact backgrounds
                      ​That raises a question to me; what were those extra dots spent on? It seems to me that it wasn't worth having more than one daiklave, and a lot of other possible stuff provided relatively minor benefits.

                      ​Maybe Dragon Blooded don't get a bunch of amulets and things on the side when they spend three dots to get a daiklave, but that daiklave is far more impressive than in previous Editions.

                      Originally posted by Equitable Remedy
                      That's a lot of work put into the power gap; and the gap strikes me as quite large
                      Well, it was always going to be. I feel as though some of this might be the kind of thing that I was warning against when I suggested to a few people to temper their expectations of what a reduced power gap meant.

                      ​Even if the power gap is large, I think that it cannot be denied that there are some impressive Charms in there, and that the overall system affords means of not being made rapidly insignificant.

                      Originally posted by Equitable Remedy
                      The lack of free excellencies feels like an exalted competence gap, which I've found to be kind of rough.

                      I'm not entirely sure what is meant by "exalted competence gap" here.


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                      • #26
                        The larceny charm that lets you turn into water to flow though cracks and stuff also lets you escape from a grapple, but it has to be a non-magically-assisted grapple.

                        So it does have "fails against magic" for a side benefit of a charm in a non-combat ability. What I don't think there is are any actual defensive charms whose entire purpose is negated by a single mote spent on an excellency. And that's the shit that needed to go. So on the whole, we're good.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Elfive View Post

                          So it does have "fails against magic" for a side benefit of a charm in a non-combat ability.
                          ​And I'm inclined to view that more as a capacity of magic to enhance grapples than a flaw in the power of the Charm. That the logic of that one goes "of course, they can't grapple you, you're made of water", but if you should encounter somebody who can grapple water, the wind, time or God, then you're not going to slip away just because.

                          ​(I'm being poetic there, please nobody bother me with ideas of whether or not any given Charm should specify the mythic scope of its grappling)


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                          • #28
                            It's really no different from how Blazing Solar Bolt can't be evaded or parried without spending one mote on an Excellency, or something.


                            Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                            My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                              It's really no different from how Blazing Solar Bolt can't be evaded or parried without spending one mote on an Excellency, or something.
                              Except insofar as it was liberally applied in 2e to where entire combat charm suites were negated by 1m attack or defense. (hyperbole yes but still).

                              The fact that it isn't being spread like marmite all over the DB charmset is a major improvement.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
                                Except insofar as it was liberally applied in 2e to where entire combat charm suites were negated by 1m attack or defense. (hyperbole yes but still).

                                The fact that it isn't being spread like marmite all over the DB charmset is a major improvement.
                                I was referring specifically to the clause Elfive mentioned for the new Larceny Charm.

                                I wasn't dismissing how much past editions of Portentous Comet Deflection were embarrassingly badly designed.


                                Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                                My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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