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Speculating on the content of "Lunars: Fangs at the Gate"

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Mizu View Post
    Of course, it doesn't hurt that while I really like the setting implications of exigents I have no confidence in making a decent charm set from scratch so its unlikely I would ever personally make an exigent character. I mean, I could always just use the example exigence charm sets or use somebody elses homebrew but that feels like cheating.
    The Charm sets in the Exigents book will be designed with the intent that players will use them for their own characters. Using them isn’t supposed to feel like cheating.


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    • #77
      I know its not intended, I am just a bit weird. But if I ever play a make your own exalt I want to make my own exalt instead of borrow one someone else made. But there is nothing wrong with just doing what is done for most splats and going by charm sets already laid down in the book or some guys home brew. Its just not my personal preference.


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      • #78
        Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
        Leopard Style - recapturing some of the more interesting elements of Terrible Ascent Driven Beast
        How do you figure?

        The most interesting thing about the Style was that it had two pinnacle Charms, and that one of them allowed you to carry the person you’re grappling as you run and leap about, while the other one let you use the rigid mobility Charms more flexibly.

        As for those mobility Charms, Solars already have Leaping Tiger Attack, Thunderbolt Attack Prana, God Speed Steps, and Leaping Dodge. Dragon-Blooded likewise have answers to those Charms. So will Lunars.

        Carrying someone you grapple is as simple as using a restraining action as you clinch them, and then moving.

        (Note to self: Check if it is possible to use Mountain-Crossing Leap Technique while restraining, and then throw the victim from the height of the arc.)

        Do you have more in mind than allowing Terrible Ascent-Driven Beast Style to use tiger claws? I don’t think that will make enough of a difference, and especially not one from Tiger Style.

        I think the only reason TAB Style existed was to give Wood Aspect Dragon-Blooded another Style they could use without spending mote surcharges, and also to give mortal barbarians more Charms.

        But there no more surcharges, Wood Aspects have Wood Charms in every Ability (and plenty that let them climb and dance about in trees), and mortals no longer learn Charms. So it no longer has anything to offer that you can’t get anywhere else.
        Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 05-02-2018, 10:14 AM.


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        • #79
          Could someone more familiar with OPP's history for this sort of thing give me some speculation on when we'd see the Lunar Kickstarter? Obviously development on a complicated splat like this could take a very long time, but is there a reasonable range? Right now my guess is like, 6-18 months, which seems like a wide gap.

          I'd love to ask the devs this, but I know that making educated guesses on the internet is something that fandoms go nuts over if there's a problem.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Abakus View Post
            Could someone more familiar with OPP's history for this sort of thing give me some speculation on when we'd see the Lunar Kickstarter? Obviously development on a complicated splat like this could take a very long time, but is there a reasonable range? Right now my guess is like, 6-18 months, which seems like a wide gap.

            I'd love to ask the devs this, but I know that making educated guesses on the internet is something that fandoms go nuts over if there's a problem.
            I wouldn't expect anything before the end of this year honestly. Although I'm not exactly what you could call the best guesstimator for this matter.


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            • #81
              Originally posted by Abakus View Post
              Could someone more familiar with OPP's history for this sort of thing give me some speculation on when we'd see the Lunar Kickstarter? Obviously development on a complicated splat like this could take a very long time, but is there a reasonable range? Right now my guess is like, 6-18 months, which seems like a wide gap.

              I'd love to ask the devs this, but I know that making educated guesses on the internet is something that fandoms go nuts over if there's a problem.
              Originally posted by Gonzo View Post
              I wouldn't expect anything before the end of this year honestly. Although I'm not exactly what you could call the best guesstimator for this matter.
              ​I agree with Gonzo. Anything for this year seems overly optimistic. It's in First Draft stage. It will likely take 3-6 months to get through the Second Draft stage at best. Then we need a majority of the art in and layout underway, which can take anywhere from 3-6 months on its own. These things do not overlap by very much as my understanding is that Art Notes get done up after the Second Draft. Somewhere in there is playtesting as well, though that's likely overlapped across multiple phases.

              After those are done, THEN the Kickstarter planning begins. None of this takes into account pushback from above, delays, a rough editing pass, playtesting finding big mechanical loopholes, etc. So 6-18 months feels like an appropriate range honestly. I'd say optimistically would be February 2019.

              My 2 cents.


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              • #82
                Originally posted by Abakus View Post
                Could someone more familiar with OPP's history for this sort of thing give me some speculation on when we'd see the Lunar Kickstarter? Obviously development on a complicated splat like this could take a very long time, but is there a reasonable range? Right now my guess is like, 6-18 months, which seems like a wide gap.

                I'd love to ask the devs this, but I know that making educated guesses on the internet is something that fandoms go nuts over if there's a problem.
                What I can say is that we're probably going to do the same thing we did with Dragon-Blooded, and not launch the Kickstarter until we've got the complete text of the book.


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                • #83
                  Chapter One: The Lunar Exalted

                  * History of the Lunars
                  *** Specific focus on the role of Lunars in the Age of Dreams, response to the Usurpation, and life since the Contagion and the rise of the Scarlet Empress
                  *** (Sidebar: Solar and Lunar relationships in the Age of Dreams. Touch on origin of the Solar bond. Most were primarily political arrangements, seen as especially auspicious; several with matches founded on love, or at least amicible friendship. A few were abusive, but those were profound outliers)

                  * Chosen by Luna
                  *** The qualities most commonly found amongst those Chosen by Luna, and the experience of Lunar Exaltation
                  *** (Sidebar: The essential humanity of beastmen)

                  * Broken Castes
                  *** Touch on the breaking of the castes between the Usurpation and the Contagion
                  *** Description of the Castes, their roles and tendencies, common totems
                  *** (Sidebar: The original five castes)

                  * Essence Fever
                  *** Animalistic insticts, a need to tear down the status quo, extraordinary intolerance of anyone or anything acting against her intimacies

                  * Prestige Spreads
                  *** The Silver Pact ('normal' Lunars, mutual protection and striving to tear down the Realm)
                  *** Winding Paths (Lunars who eschew membership in organizations, striking their own paths)
                  *** (Others?)

                  ---

                  Chapter Two: The Silver Pact

                  * What the Silver Pact is, and isn't
                  *** Mutual support network
                  *** Favor trading and gift economies
                  *** Organization, not hierarchy

                  * This time of tumult
                  *** Returning Solars: A Golden Opportunity
                  *** Rising Deathlords: A Darker Path
                  *** The Sidereals: Puppetmasters of the Realm
                  *** Others?

                  * Sh'a Oka, the Black Lion
                  *** Focus: Starve the beast
                  *** Example: The claiming of the Caul

                  * Ma-Ha-Suchi
                  *** Focus: Rip out the throat
                  *** Example: Direct assault against Realm strongholds, raising threshold marginalized people as barbarian armies

                  * Raksi, the Queen of Fangs
                  *** Focus: Fear cuts deeper than swords
                  *** Example: Infiltration of a satrapy, ultimately leading to the Realm destroying it themselves

                  (Almost certainly more; First Age and Shogunate-era Lunars, demonstrating different ways to further the Silver Pact's goals of tearing down the Realm)

                  ---

                  Chapter Three: Character Creation

                  ---

                  Chapter Four: Traits

                  * New Merits
                  *** Heart's Blood
                  *** Many other merits for capturing animalistic mutations
                  *** (Sidebar: Supernatural Merits and the Lunar Exalted)

                  * New Flaws
                  *** Wyld-Addict

                  * The Castes (Prestige spreads)
                  *** Full Moon
                  *** Changing Moon
                  *** No Moon
                  *** Casteless

                  * Anima Effects

                  * Character Advancement
                  *** Lunar Experience
                  *** Expression Bonus
                  *** Caste Bonus
                  *** Training Times
                  *** Raising Essence

                  * The Great Curse

                  ---

                  Chapter Five: Charms

                  ---

                  Chapter Six: Martial Arts and Sorcery

                  * (Between three to five Martial Arts styles; at least two animal (I'd guess Lion and Monkey) and three esoteric. Maybe Heaven's Ladder makes it's return here!)
                  *** (Sidebar: Lunars, Animals, and Martial Arts; in general, martial arts require a roughly humanoid form to use, although Storytellers may make exceptions on a case-by-case basis)
                  *** (Sidebar: Beastman Transformation and Martial Arts. While in the powerful Beastman Transformation, Lunars use the Terrestrial tag with Martial Arts charms)
                  * (Lunar specific sorcerous initations; probably one based on the Book of Three Circles because Raksi, and one based on weirdness from the Caul)
                  *** (Smatterting of Terestrial and Celestial spells)
                  *** (Example Sorcerous Projects, including creating Beastmen)

                  ---

                  Chapter Seven: Marked and Bearing Glory

                  * (Many more Hearthstones, about 2/3rds Standard and 1/3rd Greater)
                  * (Sidebar: Lunars, Demenses and Manses)

                  * Lunars and Artifacts
                  *** Normal form resonance and dissonance
                  *** Beastman Transformation is neutral to Moonsilver and dissonant to others

                  * (Four to six artifact weapons; two to four artifact armors)
                  *** (Sidebar: Making an artifact out of moonsilver tattoos. Short answer; don't- enhance with sorcerous projects or your native charms instead)

                  ---

                  Chapter Eight: All Things Great and Small

                  * (Between four to eight Lunar NPCs)
                  * (Lotta animals, around twenty to thirty. Also expect kickstarter levels to choose animals)


                  A tinkering effort at bringing Raksha into Ex3: Fair Folk: The Beautiful Thieves

                  A tinkering effort at bringing fate ninjas into Ex3: Sidereals: Where Fate Has Led - Album of the Charm Trees thereof.

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                  • #84
                    It mostly seems like a solid idea of what the structure of the book could be.

                    However:

                    Originally posted by wastevens View Post

                    * Essence Fever
                    *** Animalistic insticts, a need to tear down the status quo, extraordinary intolerance of anyone or anything acting against her intimacies
                    ​I would not want this to be their Essence Fever. I think animal qualities should be present, but not leaned into this hard, and I wouldn't personally care for them being intrinsically anarchic.

                    And

                    Originally posted by wastevens
                    * Ma-Ha-Suchi
                    *** Focus: Rip out the throat
                    *** Example: Direct assault against Realm strongholds, raising threshold marginalized people as barbarian armies
                    I feel as though an advantage to the book coming comparatively early is that it will be close enough to not completely override how Ma-Ha-Suchi was portrayed in the core again.

                    ​Now, in fariness, in First Edition, his whole characterisation of "I'm burnt out on the politics of the Exalted, just leave me alone" was in a chapter fiction. And sure, sometimes things from an earlier book shouldn't constrain a later one if changes need to be made.

                    ​I just think that Ma-Ha-Suchi as he is in the core is much more interesting than being yet another barbarian warlord.


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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      ​I would not want this to be their Essence Fever. I think animal qualities should be present, but not leaned into this hard, and I wouldn't personally care for them being intrinsically anarchic.
                      I'm leaning a bit into Keychain of Creation's portrayal here. I mean, I recognize this particular concept won't work for everyone, but I think it's vital that Essence Fever is presented distinctly for Lunars than Solars, and this was a stab at doing so.


                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      ​I just think that Ma-Ha-Suchi as he is in the core is much more interesting than being yet another barbarian warlord.
                      My hand to god, I'd forgotten Ma-Ha-Suchi was in the core. It's been a while ><
                      And I agree, using him as the prototypical barbarian warlord would be... underselling. OTOH, I think there does and should need to be an example of the 'Fuck subtle, just murder' approach. Maybe introduce a new Lunar luminary for that.


                      A tinkering effort at bringing Raksha into Ex3: Fair Folk: The Beautiful Thieves

                      A tinkering effort at bringing fate ninjas into Ex3: Sidereals: Where Fate Has Led - Album of the Charm Trees thereof.

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                      • #86
                        I doubt anyone who says “fuck subtle, just murder” without any degree of nuance or anything lives long enough to become an elder or even a luminary.

                        If you’re looking for someone who is taking the war to the Realm and is murdering people, Sh’a Oka seems to be a good choice already.

                        I’ll admit, I don’t know that we’ve got an elder who shows up, agitates a disenfranchised group against a nearby Satrapy, blesses some warriors with assured victory, and then runs off before they all get murdered. But I’m not sure that was what you were going for either.


                        ....

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                          I’ll admit, I don’t know that we’ve got an elder who shows up, agitates a disenfranchised group against a nearby Satrapy, blesses some warriors with assured victory, and then runs off before they all get murdered. But I’m not sure that was what you were going for either.
                          That is what I was going for, yes.

                          The Black Lion's approach- at least, from the little we see in one chapter fiction about how Faxai is being handled -is to starve the beast. Avoid direct confrontation, keep the Dynasty unable to gather wealth and resources, employ fabian tactics writ large.

                          IMO, there should be a 'raise armies and smash at gates' figure, agitating for more direct and immediate solutions, to use as contrast.


                          A tinkering effort at bringing Raksha into Ex3: Fair Folk: The Beautiful Thieves

                          A tinkering effort at bringing fate ninjas into Ex3: Sidereals: Where Fate Has Led - Album of the Charm Trees thereof.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by wastevens View Post

                            That is what I was going for, yes.

                            The Black Lion's approach- at least, from the little we see in one chapter fiction about how Faxai is being handled -is to starve the beast. Avoid direct confrontation, keep the Dynasty unable to gather wealth and resources, employ fabian tactics writ large.

                            IMO, there should be a 'raise armies and smash at gates' figure, agitating for more direct and immediate solutions, to use as contrast.
                            The Caul preview in The Realm, released during the DB Kickstarter, has the Black Lion leading armies of lionfolk against the Realm's fortresses on the Caul.


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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                              I doubt anyone who says “fuck subtle, just murder” without any degree of nuance or anything lives long enough to become an elder or even a luminary.
                              ​I was wondering about the idea of somebody that was already powerful before the Usurpation and managed to live through it and survive to the modern day...

                              ​But then realised how even most of them would probably still be limited to Essence 5, and thus, while powerful, not so powerful that they can treat the Realm and the Sidereals with significant open contempt.


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                              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by wastevens View Post
                                *** Specific focus on the role of Lunars in the Age of Dreams
                                Maybe you didn’t mean it like that, but I would avoid the idea that Lunar Exalted had a “role” the same way that “What Fire Has Wrought” did with the Dragon-Blooded. In the past ages, Dragon-Blooded could be kings and queens without a Celestial Exalt anywhere to be seen.

                                “Roles” in the plural is fine, though.


                                * Chosen by Luna
                                *** The qualities most commonly found amongst those Chosen by Luna
                                We didn’t get this with Solars, nor anything hinting at common qualities among those who “bred true” among Dragon-Blooded children.

                                The developers don’t seem to want to narrow possibilities about what kind of people might be Chosen by Luna.


                                * Broken Castes
                                *** Touch on the breaking of the castes between the Usurpation and the Contagion
                                *** Description of the Castes, their roles and tendencies, common totems
                                *** (Sidebar: The original five castes)
                                Some mention should be made that this wasn’t the first time the Lunar Exalted recreated their Castes. But I don’t want any details or even hints about what the five Castes of the First Age were like.

                                If the current castes are anything like those they had for the War of the Gods, that might be neat to mention. Not sure that I would care for any suggestion that the Lunar Exalted didn’t originally have any castes.

                                * Essence Fever
                                *** Animalistic insticts, a need to tear down the status quo, extraordinary intolerance of anyone or anything acting against her intimacies
                                Ehhh... not sold.

                                Definitely should talk about gaining and acting upon the instinctual knowledge of Heart’s Blood acquisition and shapeshifting, along with urges to Hunt and Become.


                                * This time of tumult
                                *** Returning Solars: A Golden Opportunity
                                *** Rising Deathlords: A Darker Path
                                I like the implication that, from the Lunar perspective, both of these rising forces seem like dangerous but potentially useful allies or catspaws in their war against the Ream and Sidereals.


                                Almost certainly more; First Age and Shogunate-era Lunars, demonstrating different ways to further the Silver Pact's goals of tearing down the Realm
                                I disagree with your assignment of focuses, but like the idea of the writing focusing on focuses.


                                * New Flaws
                                *** Wyld-Addict
                                I feel this is best left to a book about the Wyld itself. Solar Exalted have just as much or more reason to frequent the Wyld as Lunars, since Solars can appear anywhere and they can learn Wyld-Shaping Technique, but we didn’t get this Flaw in the corebook.

                                Leave it for a book that actually dives into the details about the Wyld and Wyld barbarians, not the Threshold.


                                *** Caste Bonus
                                Oh, that’s probably how Robert intends to balance Casteless Lunars against Tattooed Lunars.


                                *** (Sidebar: Lunars, Animals, and Martial Arts; in general, martial arts require a roughly humanoid form to use, although Storytellers may make exceptions on a case-by-case basis)
                                Silver-Voiced Nightingale Style should be pretty shape-agnostic, as long as your current body can vocalize. Or stamp out an audible beat.


                                *** (Sidebar: Beastman Transformation and Martial Arts. While in the powerful Beastman Transformation, Lunars use the Terrestrial tag with Martial Arts charms)
                                This is an interesting idea to balance DBT and prevent it from being the One True Build, on top of reducing resonance with artifacts. Perhaps it would also hinder Celestial Circle Sorcery?


                                *** (Example Sorcerous Projects, including creating Beastmen)
                                Oh, that’s a cool idea.


                                * (Many more Hearthstones, about 2/3rds Standard and 1/3rd Greater)
                                * (Sidebar: Lunars, Demenses and Manses)
                                If we didn’t get this in “What Fire Has Wrought”, I definitely don’t expect it in “Fangs at the Gate”. Lunars have a harder time holding onto geographical assets than the Dragon-Blooded.

                                We’re waiting for “Towers of the Mighty.”


                                Chapter Eight: All Things Great and Small
                                Or call it “Predators and Prey”.

                                The Lunars are the predators. The animals, gigantic dinosaurs and all, are the prey.


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