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  • well, whatever the problem was, the writers focused too much on one aspect and undid another in the prospect.

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    • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
      I thought the "people descended from a non-human race" as leaders of the crime family was fine, it's just that fans tended to forget that the guys with green skin, white hair, and slightly weird elongated bodies might think they're 80% Lintha but are actually about 5% Lintha.
      Or 0%. To reiterate, it might just be propaganda.

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      • IIRC Vance has said that in 3e the original lintha were demon blooded humans.

        Or primordial blooded or whatever.

        Kimbery + mortal = Lintha.

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        • I have some outlines for an "actual" non-human race that I might put up on the forums for feedback if I ever get the time to finish their write-up.


          "Measure of Hope is right about everything." - Wise Old Guru

          Currently running an Exalted 2.5 Abyssals game in a homebrew modern shard because I value neither my time or my sanity, and I'm loving almost every minute of it.

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          • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
            IIRC Vance has said that in 3e the original lintha were...
            Right, I get that, but keep in mind that the modern folks calling themselves Lintha might well share zero blood with the Lintha of old.

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            • Personally I loved Lintha as a seperate but close to human species. Their mechanics were a bit wonky, the little we got, but I wouldnt personally mind if they were just Kimberrys version of humans as long as they were stable enough of a line to be considered a race of their own. Demon Charms work fine for them but again I would have liked for them to have something of their own like the Dragon King’s got.

              But then again the only thing that generally bothers me in Exalted, aside from second editions only exalted matter frame of mind, is it’s worlds humanocentricism. I am personally annoyed how almost every fantasy setting out there, no matter how ingenious it is otherwise, has humans in it and usually in a very central role of either being the race that is rising to prominence or the race that has already done so. That is propably why my first editions favored character template were the Fair Folk and to a lesser extent the Alchemicals, whom I didn’t have any real chance to play as most St’s didn’t involve them in their creation, and the Dragon-Blooded whom I have always played very elementally including their looks being more reminescent of elementals in human shape than humans. And naturally for me the best thing out of second edition, and the one that finally got me to move on to that editions of the game from1st were the Infernal Exalted.

              So this is more of a personal beef with me. Still I welcome any even remotly non-human aspect that gets to stay in the game especially the Lintha whom I have always loved.

              Playable Lintha with their own power set would be my personal dream and I’d take them rather than some new type of Exalted. I think the world of Exalted would be enriched by there being more variation in the actual beings living there in opposition to there just being more Exalted.

              But then again my opinion hardly matters.
              Last edited by Possessed; 04-07-2019, 07:49 AM. Reason: Typos as per usual

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              • Originally posted by Measure of Hope View Post
                I have some outlines for an "actual" non-human race that I might put up on the forums for feedback if I ever get the time to finish their write-up.
                I'd be interested in that.


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                • Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                  They didn't really even jusitfy their inhumanity besides it being an easy out for them being evil/eating people.

                  Seriously, people always forget that the Lintha were portrayed as virtually always only ever eating one another. They regarded it as a respectful gesture (as many real life cannibalistic cultures have)!

                  They were actually averse to eating the flesh of other humans, because they thought they were unworthy of the honour and that doing so would contaminate them, and they reserved a special ire for anybody else that might eat the Lintha. There's an implication that they'd eat fallen Exalted, and a particularly respectable mortal warrior might get a small portion of their heart consumed, but that was it.

                  Sure they encouraged recruited members to the Family to also engage in cannibalism, which would thus be directed at other mortals, but by that point one is going far abreast of them engaging in cannibalism because of inborn evil due to inhumanity (which has to be a poor lookout for all real life cannibalistic cultures).

                  Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
                  But I liked the SS Lintha better than the B&S version.
                  I can understand that. I wonder if an ideal version of the Lintha might be somewhere between the two.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                  • Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                    But then again the only thing that generally bothers me in Exalted, aside from second editions only exalted matter frame of mind, is it’s worlds humanocentricism. I am personally annoyed how almost every fantasy setting out there, no matter how ingenious it is otherwise, has humans in it and usually in a very central role of either being the race that is rising to prominence or the race that has already done so. That is propably why my first editions favored character template were the Fair Folk and to a lesser extent the Alchemicals, whom I didn’t have any real chance to play as most St’s didn’t involve them in their creation, and the Dragon-Blooded whom I have always played very elementally including their looks being more reminescent of elementals in human shape than humans.
                    Dragon-Blooded and Alchemicals are human, though.

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                    • Originally posted by Elfive
                      IIRC Vance has said that in 3e the original lintha were demon blooded humans.

                      Or primordial blooded or whatever.

                      Kimbery + mortal = Lintha.
                      I mean, this is kind of fine. While I actually like the Lintha as a demon-worshipping cult of cannibal pirates with a certain demonic exoticism, as a pre-human species the Lintha weren't really as good as Dragon Kings or Alaun or something, because they were, well, not very inhuman. So just being demon-blooded is fine.
                      Any ancient pre-human race whose lost cities are well proportioned for humans isn't really doing a good job.
                      And saying "one large foe of the Exalted host were humans who were loyal to the Primordials because of their demonic blood" is also fine.

                      But I would still like to see plenty of bizarre non-human races.
                      (Which, probably, is what the Gigants of Dis and the Backbenders are.)


                      Originally posted by TheCountAlucard
                      Dragon-Blooded and Alchemicals are human, though.
                      I think, while Alchemicals and Dragonblood are metaphysically human, I could see that a player who thinks "playing a human is pretty dull" might gravitate towards them as somewhat physically inhuman (though I think Alchemicals much more than Dragonblood), even with human minds and souls (which makes them easier to roleplay than an entirely inhuman creature, potentially!).

                      But then, saying that...
                      Originally posted by Possessed
                      the only thing that generally bothers me in Exalted, aside from second editions only exalted matter frame of mind, is it’s worlds humanocentricism... the Alchemicals... the Dragon-Blooded
                      If the Alchemicals and Dragonblood (played to look very elemental, which is fine with me) are inhuman enough for you, what about mutants and beastmen?

                      My players just arrived at a human city where they met a holy order of Minotaur warrior-monks. They also saw some rat-people in the streets, and orca-people at the docks. And a lobster-man offered to buy one of the PCs (who was in red panda form).

                      You can also do a lot with mutants that aren't beastmen. Cyclopses, winged people (one of my friends has played both a Dragonblood mutated by a wyld storm to get wings, and also a priest from a whole race of winged people). In the game I play, the nearby mountain peaks are home to the Thoth Mek Shar, a race of 7 foot tall, 3-eyed scaled people.

                      I mean, I would like to see some more non-human races that aren't spirits, like the Dragon Kings (and 3rd ed I think is a bit better for this), or at least more stuff that's pre-human (ancient ruins, bizarre magicks, etc).
                      But I find stuff like elves and dwarves, and tbh tall green thin guys with white hair (the Lintha) to be, well, just basically strange looking humans. I mean, a Djala is more out there than a Halfling, honestly. And I'm not sure that a setting that prides itself on mixing high fantasy with realistic socio-economics and a generally progressive influence does well with "you can play a character that's not human, because they're a different colour"!


                      Originally posted by Possessed
                      I am personally annoyed how almost every fantasy setting out there, no matter how ingenious it is otherwise, has humans in it and usually in a very central role of either being the race that is rising to prominence or the race that has already done so.
                      I'll be honest, I'm okay with the fact that Exalted says "humans are the most important race because they're 99% of the world's sapient non-spirit population". Not that I wouldn't mind more stuff like the Dragon Kings per-se, but it is an explanation that makes sense.
                      It makes a change from all those settings where there's several races that are massively long-lived, and either better at magic or tougher than humans, yet somehow there's not nearly as many of them and they're not very important.


                      Actually, in my DnD game, I play the only human, and the other characters definitely do not consider humans prominent. They just think that humans are the horny perv race. They'll sleep with anything and anyone, which is why they have such a large population. I've explained that it takes two to tango, and it's not our fault that we're just the most attractive race, but unfortunately I'm outnumbered.


                      Originally posted by Isator Levi
                      Seriously, people always forget that the Lintha were portrayed as virtually always only ever eating one another. They regarded it as a respectful gesture (as many real life cannibalistic cultures have)!
                      They were actually averse to eating the flesh of other humans, because they thought they were unworthy of the honour and that doing so would contaminate them, and they reserved a special ire for anybody else that might eat the Lintha. There's an implication that they'd eat fallen Exalted, and a particularly respectable mortal warrior might get a small portion of their heart consumed, but that was it.

                      Yeah, it is quite a key point.

                      Though I can well imagine that it's the sort of thing where many people in the setting think the Lintha do eat people.


                      My characters:
                      Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                      Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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                      • Third Edition does seem to be the one that is most accommodating to the idea that there are non-humans present, even if in keeping with its sensibilities of more verisimilitude in social dynamics and pulp fantasy roots, they tend to exist on the margins.

                        Recently, I've found myself somewhat averse to the idea implied or stated in other Editions that the beginning of the Realm coincided with the deliberate extermination of all non-allied inhuman races. Not out of a particular concern for the moral outlook of pre-historic Exalted, it just doesn't sit well with me.

                        As an alternative, I've come to a notion that, for those who survived the War of the Gods (and it was still a significant toll from their own wills or those of the Primordials driving a lot of them to fight long past the point of reason), the new dynamic was one in which they initially fell under the hegemony of human beings.

                        Over the millenia of the First Age, you might have gotten some who were further dwindled by war with the Realm in the manner of the Niobraran League (although I picture none of them having the good fortune to actually have their own non-human Exalted), but for the most part it was a matter of growing human populations and alterations to landscape to suit them left other kinds further and further marginalized, such that negative population growth was driven primarily by having fewer resources and thus less children. As well as something of a general cultural trauma which reduced a lot of motivation.

                        In particular, I have this picture of the Alaun continuing to reside on the Blessed Isle for the first few centuries of the Age, but the departure of the Celestial Gods (with whom they would have become disillusioned anyway) and loss of the Primordials left them a lot more listless. As humans began to colonise the Isle, they simply retreated further and further into mountains in which they were poorly adapted to survive, until they just died out.

                        These are, I think, best suited as ideas for mythology informing the actions of some surviving beings on the margins, as well as what the revelations of examining old ruins would be.

                        That and a sense that one or two Infernal Exalted might style themselves as a patron for monsters and take a dim view of humanity (not just for a sense that the loss of other beings was an injustice), and incorporate such background into the ideology of an anti-human agenda.

                        (I say one or two not to diminish the idea, but because there aren't many Infernals)


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • I know I mentioned it, but I did have an idea for bringing back some extinct races. Not through resurrection, that's illegal. I was a bit more clever


                          Also had a few ideas for some races, though one was a post RotSE idea. We need a seperate thread for that though.

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                          • Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            Personally I loved Lintha as a seperate but close to human species. Their mechanics were a bit wonky, the little we got, but I wouldnt personally mind if they were just Kimberrys version of humans as long as they were stable enough of a line to be considered a race of their own. Demon Charms work fine for them but again I would have liked for them to have something of their own like the Dragon King’s got.
                            It's in part since as I noted before, they originally just well, weren't. They had Solar Charms in Blood & Salt purely as a stop-gap and minimize sourceobok cross-referencing. And as noted a bit, they're basically Ocean Elves/Orcs in how they're presented in 2e. They're weird-looking humans wiht pwoers, which never quite to me seemed alien enough to jusitfy being non-human. Them being non-human is just a weird bit of fanon evolving into canon as has happened at times in the line's history and htey were in the end an example to me of lazy non-human races. They were human save for some aeshtetic differences (which in Creaiton barely qualify you as non-human) and a history that was originally propoganda from a proto-nationalist racist sect. It reified the legend, rather than actually getting what it was.

                            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            But then again the only thing that generally bothers me in Exalted, aside from second editions only exalted matter frame of mind, is it’s worlds humanocentricism. I am personally annoyed how almost every fantasy setting out there, no matter how ingenious it is otherwise, has humans in it and usually in a very central role of either being the race that is rising to prominence or the race that has already done so. ...
                            Exalted from Day One sort of stood out ot me actually on how human-centric it is. I think that often times, folks who want non-human stories focus often on things that just aren't relevant to humanity a lot of the time. Or their want for non-humans are in the end purely aesthetic, as I foten see most folks who insist on playing elves or dwarves want. I would also say it's not really every setting is like this. Many settings really have nothing that's really important about humans save a protagnoist, as many D&D ones tend to be (Faerun, Eberron, and Dark Sun are all pretty human-agnostic). Additionally, many settings just don't have non-human races that are really relevant save as Star Trek aliens, where htey might have well been a human culture.

                            Exalted focuses on humans because it wants to tell stories of myth, legend, and pulp fantasy, which is often well, human-centric. The Ramayana is about demigods, but thsoe demigods are ultimately human. The Book of New Sun has non-humans, but the story is ultiamtely about how humans survive in the world they broke. If the non-humans fit in the human stories, they might as well often just be humans. Elves and dwarves often don't do much save to have a group who lives long or is more powerful or something. And often settings waste time trying to charectierize why their barely-not-human races justify their presence rather than having just good cultures about. Being upset that Exalted, a game which draws on very human-centric stories for its inspriation, isn't more non-human centric feels like complaining a dog sucks because it doesn't meow.

                            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            ... That is propably why my first editions favored character template were the Fair Folk ...
                            See, I actulaly think Fair Folk never should have been playable to begin with and are overladen with twee meta shit that it kind of shows my issues with them. They don't play the same game other characters in Exalted do in the 1e and cruddy 2e copy-paste. It's an exercise in my view of an alien thought project forced into a game about humans, rather than a genuinely interesting non-human race to play.

                            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            ... and to a lesser extent the Alchemicals, whom I didn’t have any real chance to play as most St’s didn’t involve them in their creation, ...
                            Alchemicals to me wer always very human or about human-adjacent stuff. If anything, alienation, nationalism, and their place in very human cultures in an alien environment. That they are often Chosen from the best of humanity, serve to help humans in their Nations, and so on actually kind of implies what I was saying earlier. It's not a matter that you want non-humans. You want the traditional fantasy non-human aesthetic that Exalted just doesn't assume is distinct enough to be called such.

                            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            ... and the Dragon-Blooded whom I have always played very elementally including their looks being more reminescent of elementals in human shape than humans. And naturally for me the best thing out of second edition, and the one that finally got me to move on to that editions of the game from1st were the Infernal Exalted.
                            I think it's notable in my notes above that this is about complaining a game about human stories doesn't let you opt out of its themes to play a not-human. I would argue that Infernals were actually kind of bad for this as they basically were a wastebin bag of powers that also let you just kind of toss out the themes of the game. It also misses out that Dragon-Blooded you know, still have human children, nations, and wants. This again all feels like a want for aestheticlaly not-human, rathe than acutally not-human.

                            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            So this is more of a personal beef with me. Still I welcome any even remotly non-human aspect that gets to stay in the game especially the Lintha whom I have always loved.
                            Lintha non-humanity was tenuous at best and was more evil Tolkien elf than it was anything I consider actually alien.

                            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            Playable Lintha with their own power set would be my personal dream and I’d take them rather than some new type of Exalted. I think the world of Exalted would be enriched by there being more variation in the actual beings living there in opposition to there just being more Exalted.

                            But then again my opinion hardly matters.
                            The game is called Exalted and the Exalted come from humanity. It's a game about myths, legends, pulp fantasy revival, epics, kung fu and anime action. These are in the end, just not the things that to me lend themselves to truly alien non-humans. I also honestly just don't get the appeal of playing non-humans besides I guess aesthetic preferences, rather than genuienly exploring something different, or which often feels like an undermining of the main goals and themes of the gameline.


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                            • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                              IIRC Vance has said that in 3e the original lintha were demon blooded humans.

                              Or primordial blooded or whatever.

                              Kimbery + mortal = Lintha.

                              "God"-blooded covers a lot of weird s**t that is not quite divine on principle, so god-blood is ok. Specially considering that after millenia of deals and interactions with a crapload of supernatural beings "Lintha blood heritage" might be an absurd morass of demonic, divine, elemental, fae, ghostly and who knows what else. Supposing it ever was anything but and not myth mixed with self-deluded propaganda.

                              And i agree with Blaque's points on the subject of how humanity stands in the center of Exalted's tale from a mythic perspective and from that standpoint "foreign" or "other" might be far more appropriate & resonant word overall than "non-human", humanity having room for far greater weirdness in myth & Creation than in real life, ass show by weird skin colors, leaf for hair, lineages with descent from bestial deities and so on.

                              Damn, it's the niche of dwarves & elves (and giants) in norse mythology for that matter, being magical people as much as monsters, if not more so, might be said.
                              Last edited by Baaldam; 04-17-2019, 12:34 AM.

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