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The Conan books read like an Exalted game

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Roswynn View Post
    Right, I see my "political correctness" (I call it "ethics" and "basic decency") almost choked a couple dudebros. I'm honestly a little surprised, I remembered these forums as less of a shelter for Alt-Reich reactionaries, but we all have our disappointments, big and small.
    These forums are hardly a shelter for alt-Reich reactionaries and implying that is utter bullshit. If you want to make personal or group attacks rather than reporting the post you take issue with then this isn't the forum for you. Consider this an official warning, don't do it again. You don't have to agree with someone but you do have to be courteous about your disagreement if you want to keep posting here.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post

      Sorry, I just find it distasteful to imply people associate with Nazism because something as banal as liking Conan and not caring about all the complicated things you feel they should care about.
      No, no, I already said liking Conan isn't badwrongfun and doesn't make you a bad person. Don't twist what I'm saying. I like GoT for chrissakes, who am I to judge?

      I also find people who are afraid of the political correctness apocalypse and who think racism, sexism, homophobia and ableism are cool are patently ridiculous individuals, I don't have to teach them anything, I don't have to educate them in being better people, and I absolutely despise them and don't give a rat's ass if I offend them. If they miraculously change their mind, cool, then we can have a civilized discussion. But I've met this kind of people many many MANY times and no matter your intentions, they just don't wanna change. They love their privilege and will invent ridiculous conspiracies to justify why they and their right to their opinions are the victims, poor babies. I'm sorry, I'm fed up with this shit and I'm not making excuses to ANYONE.

      Have a nice day.

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      • #33
        2120 Student: So people a hundred years ago didn't really know much about where their stuff came from huh?

        2120 Teacher: Oh no, actually most of them either had a very good idea, or just a vague kind of understanding of the whole thing.

        2120 Student: I don't get it...didn't they have like those huge long debates about morality and ethics and this huge overturn of cultural oppression around then?

        2120 Teacher: Oh yes, and ironically most of these debates happened on online forums, with everyone involved using devices that were manufactured in unethical and unsustainable ways.

        2120 Student: But...I don't get it. So they were all monsters then? How could they understand what their culture was doing and even pretend a little bit like any of them were good people? We'd lock those kind of people up today in reformation centers!

        2120 Teacher: Yes yes, and we'd be quite right to do so, the destruction of our planet and the lives of those others less fortunate for out own convenience is awful. It's not something that we've really come to understand and act on until the last 40 years, quite recently in the grand scheme of things.

        2120 Student: Was there anybody who lived in the year 2000 that we could consider to be a good person?

        2120 Teacher: Yes, a few scattered people who lived completely sustainably off their own work, but proportionally almost none of them had an impact on the dominant cultures. Most of them were either poor, isolated, or both.

        2120 Student: Wow, I don't know if I can ever enjoy anything those people made...At least NOW most of us are doing everything right.

        2120 Teacher: Yes, at least now we are. I would recommend giving some of their work a second look though, their words and ideals were usually much better than their actual actions.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
          *This isn't really directed at anyone in specific, but I've seen lots of situations online where someone says, "I really enjoyed X!" and then people say, "Yeah but the guy who made it is a scumbag," and the original poster ends up feeling like he's being attacked for supporting the actions of the creator.
          In a similar vein, someone can make an argument that speaks to the truth of a matter even if they're a horrible person.

          You're not required to ignore the fact that they're a horrible person, but it's best to acknowledge the two times a day that a broken clock tells the correct time.


          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
            2120 Student: So people a hundred years ago didn't really know much about where their stuff came from huh? [snip]
            Maybe these 2120 perfectly moral beings should consider they wouldn't be there if there hadn't been actual activists of all stripes in the 2000s trying to change their own internalized behaviors from the ideas they inherited from previous centuries, to think critically, to try to make even a little difference, to fight for their own rights as women, disabled people, LGBTQ individuals, and many other important and historically ostracized and persecuted minorities.

            Or maybe they're just huge dicks and all we're trying to do is worth nothing. But at least we'll have tried.

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            • #36
              Nah but the Conan stories are super racist and sexist, and if you’ve got a problem admitting it then you need to reevaluate your priorities.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Roswynn View Post

                Maybe these 2120 perfectly moral beings should consider they wouldn't be there if there hadn't been actual activists of all stripes in the 2000s trying to change their own internalized behaviors from the ideas they inherited from previous centuries, to think critically, to try to make even a little difference, to fight for their own rights as women, disabled people, LGBTQ individuals, and many other important and historically ostracized and persecuted minorities.

                Or maybe they're just huge dicks and all we're trying to do is worth nothing. But at least we'll have tried.
                I was just trying to point out that if we judge people from the past as though they existed today instead of being partly a product of their environment, then we too must be judged by the fact that at this very moment we are doing many things which will one day be considered abhorant behaviour. .

                It’s sort of like that old question, would you have been a part of Stalin’s horrible communist regime, or a Nazi or a British colonist? That question doesn’t suppose that if you, right now, we’re transported to that place and time would you resist. It supposes if you grew up surrounded in that environment would you have complied? The answer is actually yes, probably.

                Well, it’s either that or Germans/Russians/Brits are just soulless murderers and nobody else is capable of being that.

                I’m sure you know this though. What you might think is that because you know this you’re immune to it. I’m sure it gives you some defence against it, so it’s good to know, and good to tell other people of. Show them the Milgram experiments and stuff, the banality of evil, but no it doesn’t make you immune.

                It’s not even up for debate that the metals in your computer were dug up from the ground and totally screw with the Earth’s mineral cycle. They were produced and shipped with totally unsustainable practices environmentally, and almost certainly worked on by people with abysmal wages and working conditions.

                You haven’t refused to use your computer, you haven’t stopped using fossil fuel based transport, you haven’t stopped purchasing goods from foriegn countries with lax labor laws. Neither have I, clearly.

                People in the future will look at me and you with the same comical irony that we today look at Tomas Jefferson, the slave owner who wrote “all men are created equal, with certain, inalienable rights. Among these life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.” Or the fact that Abraham Lincoln was totally a racist, even though he officially ended slavery in America.

                And even THEN I’m sure they’ll think they’ve got it all figured out, only to have people 100 years later shake their heads at all they did wrong.


                I’m not saying don’t fight for LGBTQ rights or anything, of course so it, that’s how we’ll change things. I just hope you realize there’s a thousand other issues that you’re benefitting from, that you’re not bending over backwards and sacrificing to change, and maybe that doesn’t make you a despicable person. And just maybe that means that people who lived a very long time ago in a very different environment weren’t despicable either, in spite of how we might be tempted to view them today.

                Or at the very least, we’re in no position to criticize them for it.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by mizzlfoshizzl View Post
                  Nah but the Conan stories are super racist and sexist, and if you’ve got a problem admitting it then you need to reevaluate your priorities.
                  Literally no one here has been afraid to admit it, so who do you think you’re talking to?


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

                    who do you think you’re talking to?
                    PnuemaPilot back on p.1

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                    • #40
                      People. Look. I didn't want to get involved because gods have I been burned bad enough by that tango, but just a few things off the top of my head:

                      A° Pretty much everyone agrees that the people of centuries past had some serious issues that have leaked in their writing, issues that we should be mindful of as we read them.

                      B° Pretty much everyone ALSO agrees that those people weren't willfull monsters knowing of their own evil-ness

                      C° Pretty much everyone ALSO agrees that A° and B° don't imply their books SHOULDN'T be read, merely that context remains important when reading them

                      ALSO D° (BIG ONE): If you want to make points, don't do it like me and not mention people in your messages, because right now, you're wondering if I singled YOU out for one of those four points, and even feel insulted because you don't feel like you resemble that point. So consider, when you'll be replying, that you're going to cause the same reaction if you forget to @ the person you're adressing.

                      Also, you want my opinion? Conan: cool action pieces, cool scenario outlines. Themes and motifs? Needs a sensitivity upgrade.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                        I was just trying to point out that if we judge people from the past as though they existed today instead of being partly a product of their environment, then we too must be judged by the fact that at this very moment we are doing many things which will one day be considered abhorant behaviour. .

                        It’s sort of like that old question, would you have been a part of Stalin’s horrible communist regime, or a Nazi or a British colonist? That question doesn’t suppose that if you, right now, we’re transported to that place and time would you resist. It supposes if you grew up surrounded in that environment would you have complied? The answer is actually yes, probably.

                        Well, it’s either that or Germans/Russians/Brits are just soulless murderers and nobody else is capable of being that.

                        I’m sure you know this though. What you might think is that because you know this you’re immune to it. I’m sure it gives you some defence against it, so it’s good to know, and good to tell other people of. Show them the Milgram experiments and stuff, the banality of evil, but no it doesn’t make you immune.

                        It’s not even up for debate that the metals in your computer were dug up from the ground and totally screw with the Earth’s mineral cycle. They were produced and shipped with totally unsustainable practices environmentally, and almost certainly worked on by people with abysmal wages and working conditions.

                        You haven’t refused to use your computer, you haven’t stopped using fossil fuel based transport, you haven’t stopped purchasing goods from foriegn countries with lax labor laws. Neither have I, clearly.

                        People in the future will look at me and you with the same comical irony that we today look at Tomas Jefferson, the slave owner who wrote “all men are created equal, with certain, inalienable rights. Among these life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.” Or the fact that Abraham Lincoln was totally a racist, even though he officially ended slavery in America.

                        And even THEN I’m sure they’ll think they’ve got it all figured out, only to have people 100 years later shake their heads at all they did wrong.


                        I’m not saying don’t fight for LGBTQ rights or anything, of course so it, that’s how we’ll change things. I just hope you realize there’s a thousand other issues that you’re benefitting from, that you’re not bending over backwards and sacrificing to change, and maybe that doesn’t make you a despicable person. And just maybe that means that people who lived a very long time ago in a very different environment weren’t despicable either, in spite of how we might be tempted to view them today.

                        Or at the very least, we’re in no position to criticize them for it.
                        Okay, you're right, Howard and Lovecraft were partly a product of their environment. Rudyard Kipling too I guess. That doesn't make some of the stuff they wrote any more palatable to me, though.

                        Yes, I probably would've been part of some shitty regime or imperialist society. Hell, I'm part of a capitalist, corrupt society right now, which exploits struggling nations to enrich itself. As you mentioned, the parts in this computer were mined and put together by people who are practically slaves. I feel ashamed of that. The only way is trying to turn the results for good, at least a bit.

                        I know I'm not ethically immune. I am a racist, even though I try not to be. I have some residual internalized misogyny, even though I'm a woman. And so on. I don't think you can completely divorce yourself from the toxic ideologies you internalized as a kid, as a teen, that even today you're exposed to a thousand times every day. You fight, but the influences are still there.

                        I also don't think we've got it all figured out. Moral and ethics are a product of their time and their society. I never said my ethical approach is perfect. I only said I don't take much pleasure by reading the Conan stories - even though I know Howard's ideas were influenced by the society he lived in, it doesn't make his work more pleasant for me. It doesn't mean I hate everyone who came before - there are a lot of people in history I admire. Not completely, not as in, they can do no wrong - they could and they did, but I still can appreciate their ideas, their genius, their talent, their efforts, what they represent to us today.

                        I disagree that we're in no position to criticize people in the past. I mean, we have to be mindful of the proper context. And no, most were not despicable, they were just people, just like us. But they're not unassailable just because they lived in a different time. Everyone makes mistakes, but if we don't recognize them and criticize them how do we grow beyond them? My intent is not to mindlessly bash Howard because he doesn't correspond to some golden standard I can't even attain myself. Hell, the guy probably struggled with depression, so I can empathize. Also, his views towards women partook of elements of feminism, and later in life he became less racist, so even though he's no saint, he certainly wasn't a bad person for his day. Still, if we understand and form an opinion of him and other authors of his time, and other people from earlier decades and centuries, and still other people from later, we'll learn how their thought process developed, how our own views took shape, how "the past" is not a monolithic block of bigots but a complex tapestry of various conflicting ideas. I see that as a desirable goal.

                        Don't think I'm unaware of all the myriad injustices I do nothing against or I profit from. I'm not. I care, and deeply. But, like everyone, I need to choose my battles, everyday.

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                        • #42
                          Why is exploiting other countries capitalistic? You think communist and socialist countries don’t exploit other countries?

                          Fascism involved government control of industry and suppression of political opposition just like communism and socialism, and fascism is definitely exploitative.
                          Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 05-14-2018, 09:03 AM.


                          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                          • #43
                            I said

                            Hell, I'm part of a capitalist, corrupt society right now, which exploits struggling nations to enrich itself.
                            Not, "I'm part of a capitalist society which therefore exploits struggling nations".

                            Exploiting other countries isn't capitalistic. You got what I wrote wrong.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Roswynn View Post
                              I like GoT for chrissakes, who am I to judge?
                              My problem with Game of Thrones is less the source material and more the smug faux historical explanations I see for its world building decisions.


                              Currently taking a post break, please let me know when Sach gets himself banned again

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Roswynn View Post

                                No, no, I already said liking Conan isn't badwrongfun and doesn't make you a bad person. Don't twist what I'm saying. I like GoT for chrissakes, who am I to judge?

                                I also find people who are afraid of the political correctness apocalypse and who think racism, sexism, homophobia and ableism are cool are patently ridiculous individuals, I don't have to teach them anything, I don't have to educate them in being better people, and I absolutely despise them and don't give a rat's ass if I offend them. If they miraculously change their mind, cool, then we can have a civilized discussion. But I've met this kind of people many many MANY times and no matter your intentions, they just don't wanna change. They love their privilege and will invent ridiculous conspiracies to justify why they and their right to their opinions are the victims, poor babies. I'm sorry, I'm fed up with this shit and I'm not making excuses to ANYONE.

                                Have a nice day.
                                Well then, start on yourself and check your white first worlder privilege.

                                You do not have the right to offend anyone you want on this forum.

                                Nobody here said any of those things you mentioned are cool, and you trying to imply someone did is dishonest and cowardly.

                                Your self-righteouness and lack of thought just expose the fultility of your perceived war and your rants.

                                You barely have anything to say, you're screaming. Why do you think you have anything to teach that is worth learning?

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