Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

3E Charm Benefit Perception and Mote Economy

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I found with my group several of the players would just forget they had dice trick charms. We'd have a big battle or whatever and then at the end of the session they'd say, "Oh, hey, I forgot, I have this charm that lets me reroll 5s Would have been nice..."

    Comment


    • #32
      The problems I've seen with players and dice-trick charms are:
      a)they don't understand the efficiency, and sometimes use a dice trick when an excellency would be better (though this is hardly a big issue, it's just wasting a mote or two)
      b)it slows them down a lot, as they're checking more charms (like AnubisXy's players, they find it difficult to remember charms that just do some fiddly stuff, whereas something like Ghost-Cutting Technique or Blazing Solar Bolt they can remember, as it creates a new ability).
      c)they look at all their charms, assume they're all useful and use a whole bunch (which causes the aforementioned issue), forgetting that half of those charms are just adding 1 or 2 extra successes (performance and presence have been the worst for this, causing the Zenith to throw down 20 successes, but without using things like Hypnotic Tongue or Fulminating Word his targets can just spend 1wp)
      d)some of them get incredibly confused by extra dice or successes interacting with their dice cap. They've got much better since we started (we had several sessions where they constantly forgot that they couldn't add 4 successes and 10 dice), but I still have to remind people, or sometimes just work out their dice caps for them sometimes.

      That last one isn't an issue of the dice tricks that do things like double 8s or re-roll 6s, but rather the ones that give you extra dice equal to your intimacy level, or successes equal to half your essence, or something like that.

      I should also say that I myself aren't sure if the extra dice you get from something that lets you "roll an extra dice for each 10 you roll" counts towards the dice cap or not. (I suspect they do, being dice from charms... but that makes them utterly crap so I've assumed they don't.)


      The absolute worst one is Craft, because you may well be combining multiple charms. I had to write this explanation for my Twilight player just so he could roll using an excellency and 2 charms:
      20 dice

      Flawless Handiwork Method (re-roll 10s)

      Bright-Forging Prana (1/story): [Supreme Masterwork Focus x3 (double 7s), Experiential Conjuring of the Void (1 success and 10 extra dice, all non-charm), Unbroken Image Focus (5 extra successes plus 1 per success rolled before double 9s, all non-charm)]

      So, in conclusion:

      Roll 20 dice, for each 10 roll an extra dice.
      7s, 8s and 9s are each worth 3 successes, 10s are worth 4

      Then roll another 10 dice, for each 10 roll an extra dice, all rolls of 7 or higher are worth 2 successes.

      Now add 6 successes

      Now take away 4 (because the roll is difficulty 5)

      You need 100 total, and can't roll more than 6 times.

      And that'd be far more complicated if he hadn't had so many gold craft points we stopped bothering tracking them.


      Anyway, this is why I mostly just take the minimum number of dice trick charms. They can be useful in combat if you're fighting other Celestials because the difficulties can be so high, but otherwise an excellency is enough (except for making artefacts).
      Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 05-01-2018, 11:51 AM.


      My characters:
      Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
      Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
      Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

      Comment


      • #33
        So surely this dice trick thing is mostly a Solar problem right? I’m not really seeing much of it in the DB charmset. I mean it’s there for sure, but not all over the place, right? Or am I misunderstanding something again?

        Comment


        • #34
          I can acquiesce that the variation and uneven distribution can be a little annoying, but I'll take it over previous editions where throughout the trees you would get various additional dice, which would just mean that you spend less on your excellency. It might have just been a personal pet peeve, but I really didn't like it.

          edit to avoid double post: yeah, I think it is mostly a Solar problem, but even the few that show up in the DB set just rehashed a sore subject for some people.
          Last edited by MoroseMorgan; 05-01-2018, 12:32 PM.


          Raksha are my fae-vorite.

          Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
            So surely this dice trick thing is mostly a Solar problem right? I’m not really seeing much of it in the DB charmset. I mean it’s there for sure, but not all over the place, right? Or am I misunderstanding something again?
            Does seem to be. The DBs have a bit (re-roll 6s, get an extra dice for each 10, a few double 9s), but not much. Also, it's frequently part of their excellency anyway. Once you've bought the excellency, there's not a lot more dice tricks (and if they are, they're probably re-roll failures except 1s, which I suspect people will remember better). You're probably not going to have more than like 1.

            I also suspect Lunars won't have a lot (Sidereals might, though their dice tricks might be more consistent). I think Solars are going to have the most, because "doing something a human can do, but with 20 successes" is kind of a Solar thing. Other Exalt types are more about doing something a human can't do (though not entirely, which is why everyone still gets Exalts), which require quite different kind of charms.

            but I'll take it over previous editions where throughout the trees you would get various additional dice, which would just mean that you spend less on your excellency.
            I could see that point, were it not for the fact that lots of Solar charms still add dice.

            If you look at Presence (and I'll admit I'm using the most egregious example), the four of the first charms are:
            A charm that looks like it adds 3 dice to all social rolls for a scene, but what it actually does is reduce the cost of using multiple social charms in a scene.
            A charm that turns two of your excellency dice into a success and for an extra mote gives you 0 to 3 actual extra dice.
            Give you a single free excellency dice on all Presence rolls, and re-roll 3-5 dice on intimidate rolls, and if combined with another charm can unconsciously intimidate ambushers.
            A charm that turns two of your excellency dice into a success and reduces your excellency cost by 1 to 3 motes (well, -1 to 3, but why would you use it to make your roll more expensive?)

            (There's 3 other charms later in Presence that also add extra dice, though 1 at least is specifically non-charm)

            Except players often misunderstand and think that these charms actually give you more successes and dice, when they do not, and just change the cost (though admittedly Listener-Persuading Argument can actually give you extra dice).

            I think actually this edition is worse for charms that give a handful of extra dice you could have got from an excellency anyway... plus, in the previous edition, you might not have an excellency and so the extra dice is actually useful. That's not the case in this edition as you always have an excellency for things you have a charm for (with the exception potentially of the Bureaucracy charm that gives extra dice on certain Socialise-based read intentions rolls, if you don't have a Socialise excellency, or a few Linguistics charms that help with spoken presence or performance rolls).


            I will say though, like the dice tricks, this is less of an issue for DBs, as many of their charms that add dice actually add non-charm dice.
            Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 05-01-2018, 03:02 PM.


            My characters:
            Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
            Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
            Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

              I should also say that I myself aren't sure if the extra dice you get from something that lets you "roll an extra dice for each 10 you roll" counts towards the dice cap or not. (I suspect they do, being dice from charms... but that makes them utterly crap so I've assumed they don't.)
              Though they work much like adding more dice they don't change the dice pool. Counting rerolled dice towards the dice cap would be impossible, as all charms need to be declared before rolling, before knowing how many "dice" the reroll adds. You'd have to remove dice your players already payed for. :/

              Comment


              • #37
                I've noticed that the DB charms, unlike the Solar charms, say "for each 10 you roll, add a non-charm dice," so that's nice and clear.
                (I generally found the DB charms much clearer than the Solar ones, I guess they've learned certain lessons from the first charmset)


                My characters:
                Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Ironically, my current suspicion is that Dragon-Blooded being the weakest Exalted is actually a large part of why they have so few dice adders and tricks. Given that most Solar dice-bonus/trick Charms aren't terribly potent individually, there's not much weaker you can make the DB equivalents before you hit "They don't exist in the first place."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I would like to issue three challenges to your viewpoint.

                    1. Charms do not do things, characters do things.

                    It feels like you are expecting charms to carry a lot of the narrative weight and to be cool without context. A charm doing cool things is why spme of the Sail charms in miracles are apocraphyl. Charms, with some notable exceptions, are meant to be cool because of what the character does with them, not because they themselves are a shiny prize.

                    Fivefold Bulwark stance isn't cool because ignoring penalties is inherently exciting, but because you can wade through a small army as easily as a single person. Invincible Fury of the Dawn isnt cool because making multiple attacks is great on its own, but because in the right context you use that to melt Wargods into slag. I would challenge you to ask, "how can I use this to do something cool" or "is the emergant story these mechanics tell interesting?"

                    2. You are vastly underestimating the power of dice trick charms.

                    In any system that checks "does anything happen?" (An attack roll) and "how much does that matter?" +1 to-hit or defense is the most powerful effect in the game, and every edge counts. Its like sports, where the difference between first and second place are a few miliseconds. This is doubly true in a system as finely tuned as Exalted, where the slightest bump can have huge implications.

                    Assuming a 50% chance of success in an action, each +1% increase to success rate is going to be worth approximately +2% effectiveness of the action. This math changes at very high and very low chances to be successful. Further, dice trick charms tend to stack with one another, while charms that prosuce an effect tend to be mutually exclusive to one another. If I have Simple Decisive charm A, Decisive Charm B needs to be better enough than A to justify thw cost, since Charm A doesn't assist Charm B at all. In systems with straight upgrades where that is true, Charm A becomes a speedbump that is never used. A well designed system, Exalted included, will have the charns be dramatically stronger in different situations. Meanwhile, a charm that adds additional success chance or additional defense can be counted on to always be relevant and always be an increase in power.

                    3. The Mote Economy isn't what it was in 2e.

                    Regenerating 5m per turn has changed the face of combat. The reason you don't see a lot of charms significantly below 5m is because part of what the devs are balancing is how much a character has to commit to the charm.

                    In terms of mote economy, you are either planning to recover motes, conserve motes, spend 9 or fewer motes, or go ham.in general, you are going to use one charm at a time, possibly with some excellency thrown in, unless doing otherwise will grant a significant long term advantage.

                    -----

                    Lets expound upon that whole implications thing and take a simple combat capable but not focused Solar.

                    Strength 2, Dexterity 2, Stamina 3, Melee [Swords] 4
                    Excellence Strike
                    Fire and Stones Strike
                    Dipping Swallow Defense
                    War Lion Stance
                    Solar Counterattack
                    Ox-Body Technique x2

                    These are seven essence one charms that, on their own don't seem too exciting, absolutely change the experience of combat. Ox Body just adds +3 health, but two of them means that the Solar is literally twice as difficult to remove from the fight as a mortal. For two charms, you are as resilient as two warriors.

                    Excellence Strike with an excellency means that you have better than even odds of striking a peak human being (Dex 5, Melee 5, Specialty, Medium Weapon) in spite of having decidedly average stats. This means an average-ish Solar is better than the best humanity can conceivably put forward. You can reliably down Gods that are not aspected towards combat, and give even those a run for their money. If you have higher traits, like the iconic Dex 5, Melee [Specialty] 5 Warrior, you suddenly have something that is as / more efficient than an excellency, which tilts the mote economy in your favor.

                    Fire and Stones Strike means you can injure great behemoths that normally lower overwhelming damage to 0, and potentially elts you get your crippling Decisive Attack off a turn sooner. One turn sooner is *huge* in combat.

                    Dipping Swallow Defense completely negates most of the most common tactics to burn down someone's DVs, forcing the opponent into a straight challenge of skill on an individual. Solar really like contests of direct skill between two people.

                    War Lion Stance and Solar Counterattack change the way initiative works on a fundemental level. The system assumes that making a decisive attack puts you at risk for a crash and that, without a significant time investment, the opponent chooses who they are attacking. These charms change the rules, allowing you to land a decisive then follow it up with a withering to shore up your defenses, or spam decisive supported by Fire and Stones Strike.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
                      Lets expound upon that whole implications thing and take a simple combat capable but not focused Solar.

                      Strength 2, Dexterity 2, Stamina 3, Melee [Swords] 4
                      Excellence Strike
                      Fire and Stones Strike
                      Dipping Swallow Defense
                      War Lion Stance
                      Solar Counterattack
                      Ox-Body Technique x2

                      These are seven essence one charms that, on their own don't seem too exciting, absolutely change the experience of combat. Ox Body just adds +3 health, but two of them means that the Solar is literally twice as difficult to remove from the fight as a mortal. For two charms, you are as resilient as two warriors.

                      Excellence Strike with an excellency means that you have better than even odds of striking a peak human being (Dex 5, Melee 5, Specialty, Medium Weapon) in spite of having decidedly average stats. This means an average-ish Solar is better than the best humanity can conceivably put forward. You can reliably down Gods that are not aspected towards combat, and give even those a run for their money. If you have higher traits, like the iconic Dex 5, Melee [Specialty] 5 Warrior, you suddenly have something that is as / more efficient than an excellency, which tilts the mote economy in your favor.

                      Fire and Stones Strike means you can injure great behemoths that normally lower overwhelming damage to 0, and potentially elts you get your crippling Decisive Attack off a turn sooner. One turn sooner is *huge* in combat.

                      Dipping Swallow Defense completely negates most of the most common tactics to burn down someone's DVs, forcing the opponent into a straight challenge of skill on an individual. Solar really like contests of direct skill between two people.

                      War Lion Stance and Solar Counterattack change the way initiative works on a fundemental level. The system assumes that making a decisive attack puts you at risk for a crash and that, without a significant time investment, the opponent chooses who they are attacking. These charms change the rules, allowing you to land a decisive then follow it up with a withering to shore up your defenses, or spam decisive supported by Fire and Stones Strike.
                      You really got it wrong in the first sentence here. This is a character with the skill of elite professional swordsman, and more than half of the character's charms are combat focused. This character absolutely is a combat focused character.

                      Ox-body is cool, but my experience says that round 3 or 4 of combat somebody is going to be throwing a 30 initiative decisive attack and those 2 ox-body will keep you alive if you're lucky.

                      You in no way showed that this character could reliably hit a Parry DV of 7 without massive expenditures of motes on excellency for more dice, or even that excellent strike is even contributing.

                      Has anybody ever said that War Lion Stance, Solar Counterattack and War Lion Stance aren't all awesome charms that everyone should always want?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        With a light mortal weapon, the character using Excellence Strike and a 2m excellency will hit a DV 7 character 67.58% of the time. In contrast, just spending 5m on the excellency results in a 63.47% chance to hit someone.

                        If they match your spends, raising DV by 2, then they have a 35.07% chance with Excellence Strike versus a 33.75% chance with just the excellency.

                        If you are JUST using Excellence Strike you have a 49.2% chance vs 48.12% with only the excellency.

                        ---

                        Compare ye olde Dex 5, Melee 5, Specialty Solar with a Light Artifact Weapon.

                        15 Dice base grants a 63.47% before charms.
                        Excellence Strike = 85.83%
                        3 Mote Excellency = 80.7%
                        Excellence and 2m Excellency = 92.47%
                        5m Excellency = 88.14%

                        For Decisives, which have a base 11 dice...
                        No Charms = 31.34%
                        Excellence Strike = 58.94%
                        3m Excellency = 56.11%
                        Excellence Strike + 2m Excellency = 74.94%
                        5m Excellency = 70.06%
                        Excellence Strike and 6m Excellency = 92.47%
                        9m Excellency = 88.14%
                        Excellence Strike and 8m Excellency = 96.2%
                        10m Excellency = 90.86%

                        So at peak, excellence stroke consistently comes out approximately 5% better than an equivalent excellency. On the lower end its worth 1-2%.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Shifting your goalposts here. You had already established the character as using a medium weapon, more importantly the weapon's accuracy isn't helping with decisive attacks, which are what really matter.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Stunts, yo. You're a PC, get those two free dice.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Fair! Stunts should be calculated. Also, I established that the target is holding a medium weapon so as to maximize their Parry DV. I did not specify the attacker's weapon before that post, although in general I recommend a light weapon and a medium weapon unless your concept decides otherwise. Here are the percentages for the Dex 2, Melee 4, Specialty guy including a level 1 Stunt on a Decisive Attack.

                              0 100.00
                              1 98.99
                              2 94.46
                              3 83.88
                              4 67.25
                              5 47.72
                              6 29.65
                              7 16.03
                              8 7.51
                              9 3.04
                              10 1.06
                              11 0.32
                              12 0.08
                              0 100.00
                              1 99.78
                              2 98.48
                              3 94.45
                              4 86.07
                              5 72.95
                              6 56.59
                              7 39.75
                              8 25.14
                              9 14.26
                              10 7.24
                              11 3.28
                              12 1.33
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.50
                              3 96.77
                              4 89.33
                              5 75.83
                              6 57.72
                              7 38.76
                              8 22.72
                              9 11.56
                              10 5.07
                              11 1.91
                              12 0.61
                              0 100.00
                              1 99.87
                              2 99.02
                              3 96.19
                              4 89.82
                              5 79.03
                              6 64.44
                              7 48.12
                              8 32.67
                              9 20.07
                              10 11.13
                              11 5.57
                              12 2.51
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.72
                              3 98.04
                              4 92.94
                              5 82.66
                              6 67.27
                              7 49.20
                              8 31.96
                              9 18.30
                              10 9.19
                              11 4.04
                              12 1.54
                              0 100.00
                              1 99.92
                              2 99.37
                              3 97.41
                              4 92.65
                              5 83.99
                              6 71.36
                              7 56.11
                              8 40.48
                              9 26.66
                              10 15.97
                              11 8.69
                              12 4.29
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.84
                              3 98.82
                              4 95.39
                              5 87.79
                              6 75.25
                              7 58.94
                              8 41.63
                              9 26.29
                              10 14.76
                              11 7.34
                              12 3.22
                              0 100.00
                              1 99.95
                              2 99.60
                              3 98.25
                              4 94.75
                              5 87.93
                              6 77.28
                              7 63.47
                              8 48.26
                              9 33.75
                              10 21.63
                              11 12.67
                              12 6.78
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.95
                              3 99.58
                              4 98.10
                              5 94.24
                              6 86.67
                              7 74.94
                              8 60.01
                              9 44.02
                              10 29.35
                              11 17.71
                              12 9.64

                              So long as you are spending at least four motes, Excellence Strike comes out ahead by at least 1%. If you are spending as many motes as possible (reasonable for an important Decisive Attack) then Excellence Strike goes up to an 11.47% advantage, which is pretty huge!

                              Mr. Dex 5, Melee 5, Specialty and a stunt looks like this:
                              0 100.00
                              1 99.87
                              2 99.02
                              3 96.19
                              4 89.82
                              5 79.03
                              6 64.44
                              7 48.12
                              8 32.67
                              9 20.07
                              10 11.13
                              11 5.57
                              12 2.51
                              13 1.01
                              14 0.37
                              15 0.12
                              16 0.03
                              17 0.01
                              18 0.00
                              0 100.00
                              1 99.97
                              2 99.75
                              3 98.82
                              4 96.29
                              5 91.01
                              6 82.22
                              7 70.06
                              8 55.72
                              9 41.07
                              10 27.93
                              11 17.46
                              12 10.03
                              13 5.28
                              14 2.55
                              15 1.13
                              16 0.46
                              17 0.17
                              18 0.06
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.95
                              3 99.58
                              4 98.10
                              5 94.24
                              6 86.67
                              7 74.94
                              8 60.01
                              9 44.02
                              10 29.35
                              11 17.71
                              12 9.64
                              13 4.72
                              14 2.07
                              15 0.81
                              16 0.29
                              17 0.09
                              18 0.02
                              0 100.00
                              1 99.98
                              2 99.84
                              3 99.22
                              4 97.39
                              5 93.37
                              6 86.26
                              7 75.80
                              8 62.67
                              9 48.37
                              10 34.65
                              11 22.96
                              12 14.05
                              13 7.92
                              14 4.12
                              15 1.97
                              16 0.87
                              17 0.35
                              18 0.13
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.97
                              3 99.75
                              4 98.80
                              5 96.12
                              6 90.46
                              7 81.00
                              8 67.95
                              9 52.78
                              10 37.65
                              11 24.51
                              12 14.52
                              13 7.80
                              14 3.79
                              15 1.67
                              16 0.66
                              17 0.24
                              18 0.08
                              0 100.00
                              1 99.99
                              2 99.90
                              3 99.48
                              4 98.18
                              5 95.16
                              6 89.51
                              7 80.70
                              8 68.97
                              9 55.40
                              10 41.57
                              11 29.01
                              12 18.78
                              13 11.27
                              14 6.25
                              15 3.21
                              16 1.52
                              17 0.67
                              18 0.27
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.99
                              3 99.85
                              4 99.25
                              5 97.42
                              6 93.28
                              7 85.83
                              8 74.80
                              9 60.97
                              10 46.06
                              11 32.03
                              12 20.42
                              13 11.90
                              14 6.32
                              15 3.06
                              16 1.34
                              17 0.54
                              18 0.19
                              0 100.00
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.98
                              3 99.90
                              4 99.60
                              5 98.74
                              6 96.77
                              7 93.02
                              8 86.90
                              9 78.20
                              10 67.24
                              11 54.90
                              12 42.35
                              13 30.77
                              14 21.01
                              15 13.46
                              16 8.09
                              17 4.55
                              18 2.40
                              1 100.00
                              2 100.00
                              3 99.98
                              4 99.89
                              5 99.54
                              6 98.52
                              7 96.20
                              8 91.80
                              9 84.71
                              10 74.81
                              11 62.67
                              12 49.44
                              13 36.54
                              14 25.21
                              15 16.20
                              16 9.67
                              17 5.36
                              18 2.75
                              0 100.00
                              1 100.00
                              2 99.99
                              3 99.94
                              4 99.73
                              5 99.11
                              6 97.64
                              7 94.71
                              8 89.72
                              9 82.29
                              10 72.49
                              11 60.93
                              12 48.60
                              13 36.66
                              14 26.07
                              15 17.46
                              16 10.99
                              17 6.50
                              18 3.62
                              1 100.00
                              2 100.00
                              3 99.99
                              4 99.96
                              5 99.81
                              6 99.35
                              7 98.16
                              8 95.68
                              9 91.24
                              10 84.34
                              11 74.91
                              12 63.43
                              13 50.88
                              14 38.48
                              15 27.35
                              16 18.21
                              17 11.35
                              18 6.61

                              Excellence Strike remains 4-6% more efficient than an equivalent excellency at all mote expenditures.

                              Credit to Anydice.com for doing my math for me.
                              Last edited by SoulGambit; 05-02-2018, 09:11 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Huh, the labels aren't showing up for some reason. Its supposed to be

                                No Charms -> 3m Excellency -> Excellent Strike -> 4m Excellency -> ES + 1m Excellency -> 5m Excellency -> ES + 2m Excellency -> 6m Excellency -> ES and 4m Excellency

                                For the bottom chart its supposed to be

                                No Charms -> 3m Excellency -> Excellent Strike -> 4m Excellency -> ES + 1m Excellency -> 5m Excellency -> ES + 2m Excellency -> 9m Excellency -> ES and 6m Excellency -> 10m Excellency -> ES + 8m Excellency
                                Last edited by SoulGambit; 05-02-2018, 09:12 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X