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Exigents in Autocthonia

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  • NewK
    started a topic Exigents in Autocthonia

    Exigents in Autocthonia

    Okay, I'll likely be dead before alchemicals 3E comes out. (Seriously, if we presume 2 years between fatsplats, it's likely the Alchemicals' won't show up until the 2030s(!).
    But in preparing for what is obviously the best Exalted type and setting in the universe. Has anyone thought about what the Autocthonian verison of exigents might be?

    God's don't play the same role in setting, so it'd likely be different, BUT.... We're talking the promordial of innovation here--so it's entirely likely new types of exalted, let's call them "experimental exalts" might appear now and then, especially if the Divine Ministers decide that the Five Nations need a hand. So what type of new Autobot exalts could you see?

  • Ghosthead
    replied
    Interesting topic. Re; the main thread and not the Marvel Comics stuff, I'll offer a contrasting point and offer that, I'm not sure Exigents, or any Exigent like Exalted *can* actually work in Autochthonia! (Without some pretty serious changes to assumptions, that is ).

    To explain, I think that it's pretty axiomatic to Autochthonia as a setting that the Alchemical Exalted are lifted up collective labour and technology, and are bound through that structure to service of the populace, rather than the internal cultivation of Essence and experience that empowers Creation's Exalted. Within Autochthonia, Exalted who deviate from this pattern are pretty renegade and strange and wrong, and that's a pretty important part of defining that setting.

    So I think it would be hard to introduce Exalted into that world who don't adhere to that structure, without undermining the feel of that setting and world. At least without acknowledging that you are actively disrupting the internal consistency of that setting, as would breaking the seal of the Eight Divinities.

    Then that leads to the question of whether you could broaden out the definition of Exalted-who-are-Alchemical-technological-golems to include Exalted with other Autochthonian patron deities. (Is there enough space there?)

    Yes, you certainly could! But I think in the process, you'd have to make Alchemicals much more "of Autochthon". As it stands, Alchemicals, great as they are, seem to me not to have the flavour of Authochthon in the manner than Creation's Exalted have the flavour of their gods. They're much more Autochthonian in the manner of their construction and their material form, than in their Essence. Their Charms to me seem are material constructs and are not driven by a distinctive Essence of Autochthon in the way that Solar Charms are driven by the Essence of the Sun, or Dragonblooded Charms by the Five Elements.

    (Parenthetically, the Solars represent phases of the Sun's being; the Dragonblooded represent aspects of the Five Dragons. Each Alchemicals Caste represents and resonates most deeply with... one of the Five Magical Materials?).

    So to me I really think the question of Autochthonian parallels to Exigents is bound up with whether we want a space where Alchemicals stricto sensu, as the Exalted *of* Autochthon, are narrower and more defined as an elite Caste of the highest world-god, and we have a broad spectrum of Alchemical (in minds eye broadly bio-mechanical, without the body horror and with a dose of something brighter) Autochthonian Exalted of a variety of divine patrons within the Autochthonian environment. I think the Autochthonian setting could be a lot richer and its champions more defined for it, but, I'm not totally sure I'm the target audience!
    Last edited by Ghosthead; 05-21-2018, 04:23 PM.

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  • MoroseMorgan
    replied
    Victor von Doom, at least in the modern era, is probably the most Twilight character I can think of. I mean, there is even a Doom-bot charm, for better or for worse.

    Re: aping Raksha assumption/mutation charms, I've actually been ruminating about Raksha powers, rereading the 1st ed stuff, and it took this thread for me to realize that Alchemical charms and charmslots are a better implementation of Raksha assumption/mutation charms.

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  • Verzio
    replied
    Well, given the current Earth-616 Iron Man is the powerful sorcerer and gifted technologist Victor von Doom . . .

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  • Aquillion
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    The Lunar analogy doesn't translate IMO, because Lunars as we understand them (though admittedly we haven't seen them in 3E yet) have animal-shapeshifting rooted into their nature and charmset. If that doesn't fit the concept to some degree (though the exact degree can vary A LOT), it doesn't work as a Lunar. Like the Dragon-Blooded and the elements, Abyssals and death, and Sidereals and fate.

    In contrast, "humans who in the context of their own narratives are 'just' super-skilled, but obviously superhuman compared to real human abilities" are precisely one of the inspiring character types for Solars (not the only one obviously, it comes down to which Charms that player invests in to represent their vision of the character).


    As for Tony Stark only being about the one artifact, I've got a pile of graphic novels involving various inventions and super-science solutions to problems that say otherwise - so maybe it's the "Tony Stark" analogy that's throwing me off, and I could better understand Exigent concept in question with different examples.
    Solars (and their castes in particular) are more than just collections of abilities; your caste is as much about your goals and what you value as it is about what you do. The Twilight caste has a lengthy definition that Tony Stark only tangentially hits one note on. He'd have a huge amount of trouble hitting most of the Twilight Solar Experience bonuses with any regularity, say. He has no interest in mysticism, and he's not very focused on learning or knowledge for its own sake outside of his one talent. He would be a much better Dawn or Zenith with Craft favored; but he's a pretty terrible Twilight, since learning stuff is rarely the focus of an Iron Man story.

    (Whereas it's often the focus of a Doctor Strange story.)

    I'm not saying you couldn't make him as a Twilight, of course, since the castes are flexible. But he's absolutely not someone I'd point to as one of the caste's primary inspirations.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Do you not think something as basic and essential as a god of the forge could ever entail an Exigent?

    ​Especially considering how Exigents are supposed to be about more than the conceptual purview, and actually account for the personality of the god?
    Intradiegetically of course any god can create an Exigent given access to the Exigence.

    Extradiegetically, I would ask the player what it is that want from the Exigent and their crafting that isn't done by craft-focused Exalted of existing types. Not only to determine if it's worth the work of designing a whole charmset for them, but also to know what themes to design said charmset around. If their answer is that they want to play a Tony Stark style master artificer who relies on Evocations, without anything more distinct power-wise than that, I'd tell them that Craft Supernal Twilights have them covered.



    ​How the novelty of mechanics such as the Chosen of a volcano god having Charms based around building up a kind of Pressure might imply methods of building Charms that would be distinct from Solars?
    That's a perfect example of a niche that other Exalted types don't fill being filled by an Exigent.


    Hey, here's another idea for a Tony Stark-like Exigent that would not be out of place in Autochthonia; all of their Charms serve as metaphorical components of things that they need to build (with a strong preference for a suite of personal enhancements, akin to something like the old raksha Assumptions), with the majority of Instant Charms being things that require the setup of having constructed an appropriate "suit" or "gadget" out of one's own Essence to facilitate their use.
    That is interesting and I'd like to hear more. I'm curious what their role would be in the Autochthonian setting. It interests me most of they're a new x-factor that represents a potential change/heresy, evolving away from traditional Autochthonia, as opposed to an additional support system playing the same role as Alchemicals.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Do you not think something as basic and essential as a god of the forge could ever entail an Exigent?

    ​Especially considering how Exigents are supposed to be about more than the conceptual purview, and actually account for the personality of the god?

    ​How the novelty of mechanics such as the Chosen of a volcano god having Charms based around building up a kind of Pressure might imply methods of building Charms that would be distinct from Solars?

    ​Good Lord, the freaking Dragon Blooded now have an entirely different approach to Charms in the form of Elemental Keywords and the Aura mechanic that makes them play quite differently from the Solar Exalted.

    ​Hey, here's another idea for a Tony Stark-like Exigent that would not be out of place in Autochthonia; all of their Charms serve as metaphorical components of things that they need to build (with a strong preference for a suite of personal enhancements, akin to something like the old raksha Assumptions), with the majority of Instant Charms being things that require the setup of having constructed an appropriate "suit" or "gadget" out of one's own Essence to facilitate their use.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
    This strikes me as a bit like arguing that a Lunar can play Musashi, if they use their powerful attributes to wield a sword and never shapeshift. It's certainly true, but you have to deliberately neglect large parts of caste to make it work, so you're going pretty far from their "default" portrayal to do it.

    I also do have to say that part of the problem here is that Solar Craft is a bit flavorless. That said... to the extent that it has a flavor, a lot of it is closer to Strange. Words as Workshop Method is not something Iron Man can do. (Although I guess technically that's closer to Green Lantern thematics, if anything.)

    A more serious problem is that Iron Man is not a generic all-purpose super-crafter. Thematically, most of his power is invested in a single creation - one he's refined and revised and re-iterated on constantly, yes, but he's not Reed Richards or something. He makes his Iron Man suit and everything else is strictly secondary. That's not how Solar Craft works, and an Exigent focused on making and refining and reiterating on a single artifact might be a better fit.
    The Lunar analogy doesn't translate IMO, because Lunars as we understand them (though admittedly we haven't seen them in 3E yet) have animal-shapeshifting rooted into their nature and charmset. If that doesn't fit the concept to some degree (though the exact degree can vary A LOT), it doesn't work as a Lunar. Like the Dragon-Blooded and the elements, Abyssals and death, and Sidereals and fate.

    In contrast, "humans who in the context of their own narratives are 'just' super-skilled, but obviously superhuman compared to real human abilities" are precisely one of the inspiring character types for Solars (not the only one obviously, it comes down to which Charms that player invests in to represent their vision of the character).


    As for Tony Stark only being about the one artifact, I've got a pile of graphic novels involving various inventions and super-science solutions to problems that say otherwise - so maybe it's the "Tony Stark" analogy that's throwing me off, and I could better understand Exigent concept in question with different examples.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
    an Exigent focused on making and refining and reiterating on a single artifact might be a better fit.
    ​Mind, I feel as though this is the kind of thing in which the suit actually is the Exaltation, to which they become inextricably bonded, but that they can separate from (and need to in order to do things like modify Charm loadout).

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  • The Hug Ninja
    replied
    The main thing worth considering with an Iron Man character is if being caught without their armour is actually compelling.

    This is a problem Alchemicals have had the last two editions, they talk a good game about having different load-outs but in reality there's a whole bunch of charms your typical PC would never want to let go of and try and players would try and argue their way around any obstacles to bringing them. Ever had an NPC try to get the PCs to relinquish their weapons? It's like that situation is baked into the splat.

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  • armyofwhispers
    replied
    A thought struck me as I was reading the more recent posts.

    What if the equivalent of exigents in Autochthonia took the form of a process that bonded a mortal with a single artifact. I'm thinking this would only work in Autochthonia due to Autochthon's connection to artifacts and 'tool use' in general. I feel it would also work best if it was a tradeoff for the mortal much like Gunzoasha armor. Perhaps similarly, it would drain the user's life force. Hmmmm... perhaps the process would bond the user's soul to the artifact in such a way that they are unable to be reincarnated afterwards, consumed by the bond. This would make the bond as rare or even rarer than exigents in creation.

    But these are desperate times for the 8 nations after all...

    These bonded mortals would perhaps treat evocations as native charms. Resonant with only their artifact they would perhaps be unable to even wield others? Of course, they wouldn't have access to any evocations gated off by the charms of another splat, but I feel like they'd gain some options from having a soul-deep bond with the artifact in question.

    Like exigents they could essentially fill any niche requirements without requiring the divine flame. They could even fill various power levels based on the artifact and dot rating of it. Their very existence could affect the evocation trees of Autochthonian artifacts after they die and their souls are trapped in the artifacts instead of being released into the Ewer. I'm thinking that the user would have their soul gem ritually removed and socketed into the hearthstone socket of the artifact as part of the bonding process perhaps.

    I dunno, It's just a thought, but what do you guys think?

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  • Aquillion
    replied
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    What aspect of Doctor Strange is represented in a Craft Supernal Solar whose player only takes Craft Charms and Evocations to represent being a brilliant artificer as the sole manifestation of the character’s power?
    This strikes me as a bit like arguing that a Lunar can play Musashi, if they use their powerful attributes to wield a sword and never shapeshift. It's certainly true, but you have to deliberately neglect large parts of caste to make it work, so you're going pretty far from their "default" portrayal to do it.

    I also do have to say that part of the problem here is that Solar Craft is a bit flavorless. That said... to the extent that it has a flavor, a lot of it is closer to Strange. Words as Workshop Method is not something Iron Man can do. (Although I guess technically that's closer to Green Lantern thematics, if anything.)

    A more serious problem is that Iron Man is not a generic all-purpose super-crafter. Thematically, most of his power is invested in a single creation - one he's refined and revised and re-iterated on constantly, yes, but he's not Reed Richards or something. He makes his Iron Man suit and everything else is strictly secondary. That's not how Solar Craft works, and an Exigent focused on making and refining and reiterating on a single artifact might be a better fit.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 05-16-2018, 02:17 PM.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Well, a twilight will eventually need to learn sorcery to max out their crafting potential. I could see exigent Iron Man getting charms that circumvent that instead. They'd be way too powerful in the hands of a solar, but for a character capable of nothing else...

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    Yeah, a twilight isn't iron man. A twilight is iron man welded to doctor strange.
    What aspect of Doctor Strange is represented in a Craft Supernal Solar whose player only takes Craft Charms and Evocations to represent being a brilliant artificer as the sole manifestation of the character’s power?
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 05-16-2018, 01:52 PM.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Yeah, a twilight isn't iron man. A twilight is iron man welded to doctor strange.

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