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Evocations come from exotic materials? Magical materials mostly gate Resonance?

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  • Evocations come from exotic materials? Magical materials mostly gate Resonance?

    TalosX, you should have known better than to push the rule about non-developers responding in the "Ask the Devs" thread. Don't risk punishing the rest of us when you could just as easily have taken the argument outside, like this.

    After you hit the Quote button, copy the contents and then paste them into a new thread. Even on a smartphone, it's not that hard.


    As some background for other people joining in:

    Here's the original question-and-answer between Robert Vance and me.

    And here's where I suggest that the choice of an artifact's magical material has less to do with what the artifact can do and more to do with which kinds of Exalted the writer wants to make Dissonant or Resonant with its Evocations.


    Originally posted by TalosX View Post
    Yeah, this has nothing to do with what Vance said. "The Frost-Thorn Knuckles' icy Evocations arise from its own unique legend, not any general property of moonsilver."
    Doesn't that mean that moonsilver's properties are merely a weak suggestion, and that any moonsilver artifact could generate or manipulate any element? Or do anything at all, really.

    You just need to write about some justifying exotic ingredient that overpowers the magical material, and worry about the magical metal mostly in regards to whether it properly gates off Resonant and Neutral effects from Exalted who shouldn't have them.


    I honestly don't know what is difficult to understand about that!? If the creator of the Frost-Thorn Knuckles was hunting and killing enemies in the far north. Leaving bodies found torn up in the snow, partially frozen. It makes perfect sense that the artifacts legend would develop at least some undertones of ice manipulation.
    Originally posted by Arms of the Chosen
    Amid the uttermost North’s glacial cold, the huntress Orphan-Maker wrought the Frost-Thorn Knuckles from the Essence of great beasts. The moonsilver of their forging was tempered with a hawk’s swiftness, had a mammoth’s endurance folded into its metal, and was strengthened with a tyrant lizard’s sinews.
    The weapon was forged in the North, but you're making assumptions about the hunt which are not supported by the text.

    First of all, tyrant lizards would not be found in the "uttermost North". Their habitat is "From the jungles to the lower grasslands where they roam". Orphan-Maker needed to head south for that one.

    Second of all, there's nothing in there about Orphan-Maker "leaving bodies in the snow", either in the process of hunting the beasts she needed to make the weapon, or after she made the weapon. And regarding the hunt to make the weapon, it wouldn't be the cold that killed her prey. Maybe if the text described how Orphan Maker deliberately drove animals into blizzards and then killed them only after they had begun to freeze to death, which would have been very flavorful and thematic.

    Instead, "leaving frozen corpses behind her" was the work of Orphan-Maker's successor, Cat-Footed Jal, who inherited the fully-formed artifact with its established legend.


    After finding several enemies killed and frozen, sheer embellishment by observers could very well spin the story as "one cut from those knuckles with freeze your blood in your body".
    Wait, you think "legend" refers to the stories that other people tell about the weapon's origins, rather than the actual history of its making and career?

    This isn't Mage: The Awakening -- Creation's history doesn't change based on the beliefs of the masses.

    Neither is Exalted part of Fate/Stay Night. Evocations arise from the weapon and what the Exalt does with it, not the stories that people tell about them.

    Sozen, the Cataphract of Keys, is a myth because the armor's creator made it generate the myth. The myth didn't make the armor.

    Celestial Exalted don't suffer the Great Curse because the Immaculate Faith casts them as demons; they are cast as demons because of the Great Curse.

    But since I'm not infallible and am open to being proven wrong, I've asked Robert about it.


    The point is, legends can take strange spins and easily alter what would be baseline characteristics.
    Ah, but here you inspire me to think of an idea I agree with. I don't know if it's actually what you meant, though.

    The idea is that the Frost-Thorn Knuckles might NOT have originally produced claws of ice. That might be a power it picked up when Orphan-Maker fought the Winter Folk faeries, and only afterwards developed the potential for Glacial Beast Claw and such.


    Notice though that all of its evocations aren't ice-based, which would likely be the case if they were blue jade with an icy theme.
    Both Rimebound Predator Endurance and Tundra-Striding Stalker require freezing cold to operate at their best.

    If the Frozen Soul Resolve of Shining Ice Mirror counts as "ice-based" and "icy themed", then so do those.


    A blue jade Stormcaller wouldn't have the problems with the weapon going homicidal and trying to nuke the area when the wielder loses control.
    Horizon Cleaver begs to differ.

    .
    Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 05-13-2018, 10:31 AM.


    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

  • #2
    I would need to look back at the Frost-Thorn Knuckles, but I think there it's a case of moonsilver creating an outline of an Artifact used to hunt foes relentlessly, realised specifically in the manifestation of claws made from ice due to the specifics of having been forged in the North.

    ​I would have a hard time thinking of something that would align in quite that manner for moonsilver in a different element.


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    • #3
      Yeah, I think you're just not being creative enough.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
        I would need to look back at the Frost-Thorn Knuckles, but I think there it's a case of moonsilver creating an outline of an Artifact used to hunt foes relentlessly, realised specifically in the manifestation of claws made from ice due to the specifics of having been forged in the North.

        ​I would have a hard time thinking of something that would align in quite that manner for moonsilver in a different element.
        Sorry, Isator, but I find it hard to parse these sentences. Each one is like two unrelated sentences joined together oddly. It seems like you're trying to fit two ideas together but are struggling to express the logical relation.


        First, let me say that I think the Frost-Thorn Knuckles are really cool. That's not a sarcastic pun; I love this artifact. It looks awesome when I picture it in my head, and the silver color is very complementary with the pale blue crystals and bright red blood.

        As you say, there's also plenty of lunar themes in the artifact. It embodies tenacity, toughness, bloodthirst, and ferocity.


        But let us look at Rainwalker, another artifact printed in the same book. It was also made by a Lunar. It also has elemental conjuration powers. But this one actually does incorporate blue jade. In fact, it is primarily blue jade, with a special exception granted for full Lunar resonance.

        Rainwalker shows what the Frost-Thorn Knuckles could have been, and raises the question of why it is not.

        A logical answer is that the Resonant effects of Rainwalker are balanced for Dragon-Blooded use, and the Resonant effects of the Frost-Thorn Knuckles are not.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
          Yeah, I think you're just not being creative enough.
          I think that sounds like an ad hominem attack that tries to avoid putting in the effort to find a counter-argument by ignoring the argument and attacking me, instead.
          Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 05-13-2018, 11:43 AM.


          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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          • #6
            Let me rephrase: I think the themes listed in the book cover a broader range of possible manifestations of power than you think they do.

            Just because something makes ice, doesn't automatically mean it's associated with air. The Frost Thorn Knuckles deal with the predatory nature of the northern climate itself.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Elfive View Post
              Let me rephrase:
              Thank you, but an apology would also be appreciated.


              I think the themes listed in the book cover a broader range of possible manifestations of power than you think they do. Just because something makes ice, doesn't automatically mean it's associated with air.
              Robert Vance himself said that the ice has nothing to do with the moonsilver, so even if you were right about what I think, it would be irrelevant.


              The Frost Thorn Knuckles deal with the predatory nature of the northern climate itself.
              Hostile environments aren't predatory or lunar. Sea's Verdict evokes the hostile sea, and may use some moonsilver for accents, but it's thoroughly a black jade weapon which Lunars are merely neutral with.

              Again, if hostile environments are justification enough, there could be a moonsilver desert sand-whip. There could be a moonsilver volcano shield.


              So far, no one has tried to refute my arguments about Rainwalker.


              Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

              My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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              • #8
                I think it's unfair to say 'Stormcaller isn't Blue Jade because of Resonance' when it actually makes sense as an Orichalcum weapon; we know that Orichalcum can harness forceful natural phenomena, and we know the other material of Stormcaller is a storm demon. The thing giving it electric power isn't the Orichalcum, it's the Demon. The Orichalcum is 'channeling Essence' and 'hardness forceful, vibrant, or energetic natural phenomena' from the Storm demon, and was made by an Exalt for a Solar, so clearly it'd lean towards being made of Orichalcum due to those thoughts.

                As for Frost Thorn Knuckles. I didn't really think about it, but I think on some level when you're looking at a weapon whose powers include things like 'shapeshifting, malleability, and otherworldly realms', with affinities towards 'adaptation, trickery, and witchcraft', then you combine that with the idea of Fae and how they adapt to their stories, you can, to me, start to see why a weapon used by a huntress in the frozen north, who subdued frozen beasts, someone who forged the weapons in biting cold instead of a burning forge (it's specifically said in the fluff of the weapon that it was wrought in in the Northmost Glacial Cold; for a material like Moonsilver, I could see that being more then fancy language; I could see it, somehow, actually being made and created not through heat, but through blistering cold binding it's parts together), that the weapon may have taken principles of 'icy death' more literally then others could have.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                  Hostile environments aren't predatory or lunar.
                  Yes they are. How are they not?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                    Yes they are. How are they not?
                    Because they’re elemental and impersonal and dispassionate. Sea’s Verdict kills you because the sea kills you, and neither care who you are or what you did, and neither kill you because they need to feed.


                    Also, still no response about Rainwalker. Why is it jade, if not merely to give Dragon-Blooded access to balanced Resonant effects?


                    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                      Because they’re elemental and impersonal and dispassionate. Sea’s Verdict kills you because the sea kills you, and neither care who you are or what you did, and neither kill you because they need to feed.


                      Also, still no response about Rainwalker. Why is it jade, if not merely to give Dragon-Blooded access to balanced Resonant effects?
                      because it is Resonant to both Blue Jade and Moonsilver, as Seven Stars Glutton used both Blue Jade and Moonsilver to suppress a Fae's Grace.

                      Rainwalker’s wielder ignores environmental penalties from
                      rainfall or other precipitation. Lunar Exalted are always resonant
                      with this artifact, despite its jade composition, as the
                      moonsilver worked into it harmonizes with their Essence.


                      This is where myself and the canon of the game differ, since I allow artifacts that have enough magical material for it to be referenced in the forging of a weapon to count as that magical material for Resonance. Rainwalker does this but as it's own special rule.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Flare View Post
                        because it is Resonant to both Blue Jade and Moonsilver, as Seven Stars Glutton used both Blue Jade and Moonsilver to suppress a Fae's Grace.
                        Why did the writer use jade? Frozen-Thorn Knuckles proves that is unnecessary.

                        It’s already built around an umbrella which was part of a Raksha named after clouds and living in clouds. That’s plenty of association with weather.

                        Why did the writer not make it purely moonsilver? Why make it resonant with Dragon-Blooded when the Frost-Thorn Knuckles aren’t?


                        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                          Why did the writer use jade? Frozen-Thorn Knuckles proves that is unnecessary.

                          It’s already built around an umbrella which was part of a Raksha named after clouds and living in clouds. That’s plenty of association with weather.

                          Why did the writer not make it purely moonsilver? Why make it resonant with Dragon-Blooded when the Frost-Thorn Knuckles aren’t?
                          Why not? Isn't it more fun to let more people do something and have fun with something then less people?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Flare View Post

                            Why not? Isn't it more fun to let more people do something and have fun with something then less people?
                            Then why exclude Dragon-Blooded, Abyssals, Sidereals, and Liminals from the Resonant effects of Frost Thorn Knuckles?

                            Why have the Resonant keyword at all?


                            Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                            My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                            • #15
                              "Amid the uttermost North’s glacial cold, the huntress
                              Orphan-Maker wrought the Frost-Thorn Knuckles
                              from the Essence of great beasts"

                              Thats where the ice comes from.
                              The magical material used is only a part of the thematics of evocations, the intent of the creator and the personality of the wilder and past wielders also are a part of it.

                              Else, how do you explain Mela's Coil evocations that turns you into a dragon, if the artifact doesnt have moonsilver?
                              "She forged Mela’s Coil together with a star-eyed emissary of Heaven to celebrate this most martial of draconic incarnations"
                              So the apex charm lets you turn into an incarnation of the dragon.

                              Evocations have more moving parts that the material they are made of.

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