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Evocations come from exotic materials? Magical materials mostly gate Resonance?

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  • #31
    Looks like things are getting pretty heated here. Friendly reminder to keep it respectful.


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    • #32
      I think... Sunder is already convinced of something, but is kinda trying to, I'm not sure what.

      When I started reading all this thing about the frost knuckles it felt to me like he almost wanted to say "there, see? I found a mistake in Arms of the Chosen".

      I don't mean to be rude, but I really can't see what's so important about clarifying this artifact's evocations?

      I'm honestly curious.


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      • #33
        Every canon artifact is a precedent that tells us more about what is possible or permissible within the balancd of the game of Exalted.

        This precedent seems to be that moonsilver artifacts can control any element, orichalcum artifacts can steal and devour souls, starmetal artifacts can shapeshift, and soulsteel artifacts can manipulate fate. Anything you can justify with a backstory.

        (I exclude jade because it could already do just about anything as long as you picked the right color.)

        This seems to undermine the wordcount Arms of the Chosen used to give the metals any individual character beyond color. It appears that it is the exotic materials which really define the artifact.

        Orichalcum's elementalism is at least distinct in being disastrously widespread and brutal. How is moonsilver's elementalism distinct from jade's or orichalcum's when moonsilver is allowed to be either subtle or dramatic?

        .
        Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 05-13-2018, 08:01 PM.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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        • #34
          The material of an artifact doesn't determine what it can do. It determines how it does it.

          Frost-thorn Knuckles manipulate ice in a way that draws upon the predatory themes of moonsilver. They wouldn't work as a jade artifact. They're too... primal.

          It's the same with all the other artifacts in the book. Gorgon is white jade because it can turn people to stone. It resonates with abyssals because it's got a monster inside and has a death radius.

          The themes of the material are always there. The backstory compliments them, but it never overrides them. Jade will always display its powers in an elemental nature, regardless of what it can do. Orichalcum will always be flashy. They're a foundation, not a cage.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

            This precedent seems to be that moonsilver artifacts can control any element, orichalcum artifacts can steal and devour souls, starmetal artifacts can shapeshift, and soulsteel artifacts can manipulate fate. Anything you can justify with a backstory.
            I don't think this Artifact sets a precedent that is as extreme as you think it is, and I think it's still leaving a lot out.

            ​A moonsilver Artifact to control elements should still need to express such powers in a form and manner resonant with moonsilver. I think that leaves a lot more elemental things out than it encompasses.

            ​If nothing else, I think the starting thesis of resonance being based on stating what effects are and are not permissible to different Exalted doesn't hold up, because the way resonance and dissonance is distributed would make keeping track of those standards too complicated.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by Elfive View Post
              Frost-thorn Knuckles manipulate ice in a way that draws upon the predatory themes of moonsilver. They wouldn't work as a jade artifact. They're too... primal.
              They are claws; what do you expect? You either sneak or rush to get in close and stab a man in the gut. That's rather unavoidably savage. Moonsilver supports either the subtle sneakiness or the wild lack of restraint.


              It's the same with all the other artifacts in the book. Gorgon is white jade because it can turn people to stone. It resonates with abyssals because it's got a monster inside and has a death radius.
              So why don't Dragon-Blood resonate with the elemental powers of the Frost-Thorn Knuckles?


              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              ​A moonsilver Artifact to control elements should still need to express such powers in a form and manner resonant with moonsilver.
              Moonsilver artifacts can "bristle with barely-restrained fury" or be "cool and subtle", "lurking like serpents".

              Sounds pretty much exactly like the range of control that jade artifacts have over the elements.


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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                They are claws; what do you expect? You either sneak or rush to get in close and stab a man in the gut. That's rather unavoidably savage. Moonsilver supports either the subtle sneakiness or the wild lack of restraint.
                Have you actually read the evocations to this thing?

                Rimebound Predator Endurance

                Glacial Beast Claw

                Tundra-Striding Stalker

                There's reference to hunting, beasts and prey all over it. That's not just a consequence of them being claws, it's a deliberate emphasis of moosilver's predatory themes. It conjures up the image of a wild beast.

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                • #38
                  I've had enough of a fight that goes nowhere.

                  Suffice to say that I'm happier house-ruling that the Frost-Thorn Knuckles include some blue jade in their construction.

                  It may not be enough for Dragon-Blood to fully resonate, but the themes of the weapon are not beyond them, given the Evocations speak of "the killing speed of wind" and "descending like a storm of ice". The Immaculate Dragon Styles show that elemental combatants can be extremely fast and do all sorts of nasty things inside a body.


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                    I've had enough of a fight that goes nowhere.
                    Maybe if you weren't trying to fight us, as opposed to exchanging ideas in a respectful, receptive fashion?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                      Maybe if you weren't trying to fight us, as opposed to exchanging ideas in a respectful, receptive fashion?
                      I did.

                      I'm not the one who started insulting and shouting at the opposition.


                      Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                      My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                      • #41
                        I think you are just over thinking it man and trying to look at everything as a way to distill and codify it to much. Exalted is a much more narrative system just meant to adapt and flow to what fits and is cool in your story. The knuckles draw on moonsilver themes but express it in a unique and interesting way. If anything they express the fluid and adaptive nature of the game more than they codify in some new use of moonsilver.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                          I did.

                          I'm not the one who started insulting and shouting at the opposition.
                          I've always viewed discussions/debates in these forums as an exchange of ideas and theories. I've never, at least not intentionally, tried to upset or insult anyone. If you feel I have, please let me know so I can make proper amends. Also, I would enjoy continuing to discuss different theories on artifact evocations, and I hope you'll continue to participate.

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                          • #43
                            Hey guys,

                            Been reading over this and wanted to add some thoughts I had on this subject. When I make an artifact with my char in my game I work with my ST to create it like I am sure most everyone does. A quick breakdown of that process goes like this:

                            Idea of Artifact
                            What do I want it to do?
                            What Magical Material(s) best express the way to harness and control the effect I want?
                            What exotic materials support the effect I am going for?

                            Now moving to a bit more detail I am making a weapon called Legends End. My character despises fighting foes of legendary size and this Daiklaive being made is specifically designed to fight against foes with this feature. After me and my ST spoke about this theme and what it would entail the resulting materials were ultimately decided upon for the sword.

                            Primary: Oricalcum
                            Secondary: Small amount of Moon Silver and Star Metal for filigree and synergy.
                            Exotic Materials: Blood and hide of a tyrant lizard. The poisonous blood and fangs from a massive behemoth we fought from underground, Bones of an ancient Dis sorcerer we fought, The dust remaining from a chimera we killed.

                            My ST and me both agreed that to make a weapon that would become the bane of legendary sized foes and eventually famous for fighting them would need to incorporate pieces of previous foes as it would help the weapon resonate with the intent I was forging it under and the destiny I was planning to impart to it.

                            The way I have always looked at it was that the materials help reinforce the intent of the craftsman as he weaves and forges the potential of each component together into an artifact whose purpose is then made manifest in its completion. Its evocations a perfect combination of the materials and the artisans desire as he made the weapon.

                            For already made artifacts with their own histories already made, as the wielder fights with it and he adds and changes its history as he fights with it the can bring out new or different abilities as their destiny and legacy mingles with and becomes part of the artifacts legend.

                            Bringing it home, I don't think anyone on the thread so far has a point of view that is wrong or inherently right. Like a bunch of Lore supernals each person has an idea on how the weapon came to be and most likely some of what each person has said is right and part of it. Its not a this person is right or wrong so much as what works best for you and your games. I think AotC spells out everything in a pretty straight forward way. Thanks for your time guys.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                              I'm not the one who started insulting and shouting at the opposition.
                              There is a consistent trend of you getting incredibly defensive at the drop of a hat.

                              ​Then you wonder why you so often start threads that gain little to no traction, which makes you even more touchy.

                              ​When you get like this, it is exhausting to try and discuss things with you.

                              ​EDIT: That being said, it was also incredibly out of order for Elfive to only provide short, pithy answers and escalate into using all caps.


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                              • #45
                                I think I figured out the difference.

                                The Frost Thorn Knuckles can manipulate ice in a very specific way. They freeze people. They let the wearer strike like the north wind. They could never get an evocation that created a wall of ice or shot lightning or anything. That's just not an option for them.

                                But blue jade? With the right wielder that could happen. The potential would be there. That's the difference. Moonsilver, and other non-jade materials, can take on evocations of an elemental nature, but it will only ever be a small subset of what a given colour of jade can manage.

                                In the same way, a blue jade version of Stormcaller could have the capacity to summon blizzards or hail, but Stormcaller itself can't. It's storms are of a distinctly tropical variety.

                                Stop looking at what an artifact can do and start looking at what it can't. That's the difference. That's what separates legend from materials. Materials are broad, and provide the basis for a grab-bag of effects. Legends are unique and specific, and a legend will never grant an artifact the capacity of an entire material.

                                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                                ​EDIT: That being said, it was also incredibly out of order for Elfive to only provide short, pithy answers and escalate into using all caps.
                                Yeah, I was getting annoyed by that point from repeatedly trying to explain what, in all honesty, I still feel is a fairly simple concept.

                                I started this thread basically indifferent to the FTK, but now I'm firmly convinced that they wouldn't work as anything but moonsilver. Yeah, they have ice powers, but that's irrelevant. Everything else about them is moonsilver. Ice is just how they express that. A far cry from, as Sunder put it in the very first post, moonsilver's properties merely being a weak suggestion. Those themes permeate the artifact on a fundamental level. To come away with that conclusion simply because they have the ability to freeze things is, I feel, completely misunderstanding how themes work.

                                And remember, lunars take their power from the beasts of Creation which include things like furnace rhinos and that ice horse from the last hundred devils night parade. Weird elemental shit is just a fact of life there.
                                Last edited by Elfive; 05-15-2018, 05:51 AM.

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