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Evocations come from exotic materials? Magical materials mostly gate Resonance?

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  • #46
    Point of fact, Lunars won’t be able to take the heart’s blood of magical animals like furnace rhinos. The developers want to be able to design some fantastic beasts that they don’t have to balance against Lunar Exaltation.


    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
      There is a consistent trend of you getting incredibly defensive at the drop of a hat.
      Yes, but that doesn’t prove that I was provoking a fight... ever, really. Much less this time.

      Remember, you’re responding here to me refuting Alucard’s accusation that I’m just looking to fight and not actually exchanging ideas. That’s the accusation you defended.

      I can be approaching an argument reasonably and still reject most counter arguments. I don’t need to be convinced by anything if it is not convincing.


      Then you wonder why you so often start threads that gain little to no traction, which makes you even more touchy.
      I started this thread in particular to avoid a derailing conversation in response to TalosX trying to start a non-developer conversation in the “Ask the Devs” thread. Because Talos could not expect me to not respond.

      I didn’t care if this thread saw major traffic. Keeping the audience small was part of the point.


      When you get like this, it is exhausting to try and discuss things with you.
      And your emotional feelings are an objective measure of how logically you are examining the issue?

      By that self-serving logic, I am a righteous martyr willing to speak the truth everyone else wants to shout down.

      As opposed to a guy spending too much time arguing about fictional crap on the internet.
      Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 05-15-2018, 09:23 AM.


      Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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      • #48
        @draktor

        If I was looking to design a weapon which served as the bane of a specific creature:

        * orichalcum if the targets are creatures of darkness

        * soulsteel, if the targets are a human profession or class or ethnic group or something, so you can turn the souls of dead members of that group against the living members

        * moonsilver for animals, beasts, creatures with distinct physical qualities like being small and fast or gigantic huge - such as what you’re going for

        * starmetal depends on the particular divine energies from which it was derived, so the right backstory justifies anything as long as the implementation seems like Fate magic

        * jade can be used against elemental targets; Fire can consume Wood, or consume other Fire, or be bent to melt Air’s ice, evaporate Water... Wood can be used to slurp up Water and desiccate other Wood and living creatures...


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          Yes, but that doesn’t prove that I was provoking a fight... ever, really.
          Hmmmm…

          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          I’m out of the house right now and posting on my smartphone. So I’m only going to respond to posts I can instantly tear to pieces.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by TalosX View Post

            I've always viewed discussions/debates in these forums as an exchange of ideas and theories. I've never, at least not intentionally, tried to upset or insult anyone. If you feel I have, please let me know so I can make proper amends. Also, I would enjoy continuing to discuss different theories on artifact evocations, and I hope you'll continue to participate.
            Oh, I’ll continue.

            I do not feel as though you insulted me, wittingly or otherwise.

            I do feel as though I may have just wasted a lot of energy by rationally and logically arguing a point that no one should have ever given a damn about.

            Like, maybe everyone might have instead agreed that the Frost-Thorn Knuckles would have benefitted more from a more explicitly elemental origin, like a literally ice-forge rather than the vague fact that it was forged somewhere in the far North, or that the animals used to make it were themselves infused with the Essence of ice.


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            • #51
              Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
              Hmmmm…
              You’re trying to pick a fight again, Alucard. Remember how that went last time.

              Anyone can see that the only posts you’ve made in this thread are accusations against me as a person.

              That post you reference was in response to certain pithy and shallow arguments which contributed little, and in that post I acknowledged more effort-filled posts that I would actually need time to read and understand.
              Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 05-15-2018, 09:49 AM.


              Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                You’re trying to pick a fight again, Alucard.
                No, I'm not. That you're seeing it as such, is the problem I'm trying to address.

                I have no interest in fighting with you; I am interested in seeing this discussed without assuming that you're under attack.
                Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 05-15-2018, 10:01 AM.

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                • #53
                  Answering to the thread's topic question:

                  I don't think evocations come from exotic materials only. They come from the artifact and the interaction with the wielder as a whole.

                  Personally I think there's little or no gain in trying to extract hard specific rules from the canon artifacts, as writing them is both an exercise of sensitivity and creativity. This isn't chemistry class, so we won't be getting exact recipes all the time.

                  So I wouldn't care if someone came up with a starmetal flute that controls the winds as long as it is cool.


                  Join the Strife

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                    The Frost Thorn Knuckles can manipulate ice in a very specific way. They freeze people. They let the wearer strike like the north wind. They could never get an evocation that created a wall of ice or shot lightning or anything. That's just not an option for them.
                    Without necessarily disagreeing with that being the case for FTK, I don’t think that is the whole story for moonsilver.

                    Moonsilver also has themes of witchcraft and transformation. I could see a moonsilver artifact fashioning walls of ice, if only from existing ice, because it’s magic is to reshape solid matter.

                    It will only ever be a small subset of what a given colour of jade can manage.
                    I don’t know if you’re talking about materials as a whole or specific artifacts in particular.

                    Comparing specific artifacts, Sekhem isn’t any more flexible with fire than Frost-Thorn Knuckles is with ice.

                    If anything, FTK is more flexible in that it uses moonsilver’s themes to provide protections to the user that jade weapons normally do not, in addition to elemental attacks. Generally, only jade armor provides protection against elemental hazards, while weapons like Volcano Cutter can kill its user if she isn’t careful.


                    In the same way, a blue jade version of Stormcaller could have the capacity to summon blizzards or hail, but Stormcaller itself can't. It's storms are of a distinctly tropical variety.
                    The final evocation of Stormcaller can in fact summon ice storms and even tsunamis.

                    It’s entirely possible and even interesting to suppose that Stormcaller’s demon is tropical, but there’s no mention of that and no suggestion that the generated weather will warm a cooler environment.


                    Yeah, I was getting annoyed by that point from repeatedly trying to explain what, in all honesty, I still feel is a fairly simple concept.
                    Asking your opponent to explain his position is potentially cheaper, and can get him to spend much more time and energy than you. This buys you time to recharge and can help you get a better understanding of his position. Or even cause him to question his own position after the effort he put into re-examining it.


                    I started this thread basically indifferent to the FTK, but now I'm firmly convinced that they wouldn't work as anything but moonsilver.
                    I increasingly have my doubts that a jade weapon would grant elemental protection to its user like Frost-Thorn Knuckles does.


                    Yeah, they have ice powers, but that's irrelevant. Everything else about them is moonsilver. Ice is just how they express that.
                    I disagree that it is entirely irrelevant.

                    As I said, I would prefer if the weapon had been explicitly forged with some kind of ice-magical tool or from ice-magical beasts; being forged merely from ice-resistant beasts up in the far North is fine for the resistance it grants, but feels insufficient to me for the cold it creates.

                    If its origin story had one or both of those things, I wouldn’t ask for it to include jade as a source.

                    Robert Vance confirms that moonsilver isn’t the source of the cold; the source must be something else.

                    The source of the ice doesn’t have to be blue jade, but it would be nice if it were something half as impressive as the elemental wood dragon someone killed and used for Spring Razor. And Spring Razor is made of green jade, so it hardly needed such a strong justification to be poisonous and flowery.


                    A far cry from, as Sunder put it in the very first post, moonsilver's properties merely being a weak suggestion.
                    Yeah, I was wrong about that bit.


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                    • #55
                      This thread is a perfect reminder that the default attitude approaching fantasy should be "Justify For" rather than poking holes. It's not because poking holes is inherently bad, it's because there is no secret truth, no formula, no underlying way the game "really" works. Sometimes stuff is that way because it's a fantasy game and someone thought it was neat and had an idea in their head. Basically re-read Flare 's post.

                      Exalted is not a real place. The people writing it are just writers, not perfect omniscient people with a vision that extends down to how they fluff artifacts on an individual level while consulting the manual of appropriate synergies. Sometimes you're just overthinking it and it doesn't matter at all.
                      Last edited by ParanoiaCombo; 05-15-2018, 12:46 PM.


                      Incentive is not permission or justification.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        ...

                        I do feel as though I may have just wasted a lot of energy by rationally and logically arguing a point that no one should have ever given a damn about.

                        ...
                        Yeah, all this silly arguing, right?

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                        • #57
                          So, a big thing I think people need to be comfortable with in Artifacts and Evocations is that there will be lots of overlapping thematic space in what different magical materials can accomplish through different means. For example, from a mechanical standpoint, would anybody have batted an eye if Stormcaller were a blue jade sword that used resonance with lightning and wind effects to call storms and do anime katana bullshit? Given that some people were confused about it being orichalcum in the first place, I suspect not. How about if it was a Starmetal blade made from the fallen-fate of a slain god of storms - a weapon that calls orders the least gods of weather to action but bears a destructive curse matching the doom of the god it was forged to honor? What if it were a white-jade sword with a storm-demon sealed inside - a sibling-blade to the tomb-sword Gorgon? This may sound magical teaparty-ish, but the overlap between magical material themes is already in the RAW - the metaphorical associations of jade step on the toes of basically everything in minor ways and orichalcum is literally called wishmetal for its intense flexibility.


                          Exalted is an aesthetic.

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                          • #58
                            The problem wasn't overlap. It was an unsatisfying level of justification in the weapon's backstory.

                            Robert outright said that moonsilver isn't meant to overlap into elemental themes, and that the weapon's ice comes from its origins.

                            If Orphan-Maker had made the thing with the Essence of a slain Winter Folk or Air Elemental, that would have been different. The most impressive creature canonically used was a Tyrant Lizard, which live in the West and South, not the Far North.


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                            • #59
                              It's a predator themed Artifact with elemental SFX, more than an elemental Artifact. And I think that's a big reasoning for its creation.

                              It also if I remember right is Resonant for DBs anyways, so this whole thing seems to be built on a lot of legaiese and putting words in peoples mouths still.


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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                                It's a predator themed Artifact with elemental SFX, more than an elemental Artifact.
                                So how do you define an “elemental artifact”?


                                It also if I remember right is Resonant for DBs anyways
                                You do not remember right. The Frost-Thorn Knuckles are purely a moonsilver artifact without any jade or any exception made for Dragon-Blooded.


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