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Evocations come from exotic materials? Magical materials mostly gate Resonance?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    So how do you define an “elemental artifact”?
    One that's more about the element? Ice themes for blue jade typically are things about lightning, cold, high intellect, all that stuff. A blue jade ice-based Artifact woudln't have as much typically about the wilds, would be about more directly manipulating well, cold. Not using cold as a tool serving the narrative of a superpredator.

    I think you're kind of being really specific in your need for aesthetics to fit into certain boxes and categories, and also trying to demarcate things which by thier nature are narrative and resist demarcation. "elemental Artifact' isn't seomthing you probably can sit and give both sufficent and necessary criteria that when met it's that. It just happens to be that this is an Artifact which uses cold, but it's core themes are about predation served by cold, versus something that might use cold but be less emphasizing being a hunter. What draws the line isn't going ot be something that youc an sum up in a single sentence becuase it's not the sort of thing that can be summed-up in such a way.

    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    You do not remember right. The Frost-Thorn Knuckles are purely a moonsilver artifact without any jade or any exception made for Dragon-Blooded.
    My mistake, wasn't near a copy of the pdf. I think I was mixing it up with the reaper daiklave then.


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    • #62
      Originally posted by Blaque View Post
      One that's more about the element? Ice themes for blue jade typically are things about lightning, cold, high intellect, all that stuff. A blue jade ice-based Artifact woudln't have as much typically about the wilds, would be about more directly manipulating well, cold. Not using cold as a tool serving the narrative of a superpredator.
      Smiling Razors uses fire to serve the narrative of an assassin. Vengeance does the same thing with water. Faith's Pillar uses earth to serve the narrative of a holy warrior. Heavily Typhoon uses wind and lightning to serve the narrative of an executioner.

      Do you not consider them "elemental"? I'm curious what canonical artifact you consider "elemental". Please tell me your concrete examples.

      What if there was an artifact mask that allowed you to shapeshift into the form your chosen target considered most sexually attractive? Is that not a shapeshifting artifact, because it uses shapeshifting to service the narrative of a seductress?

      What if there was an artifact like Soulmirror that imprisoned the souls of the slain, so that you could spend them to heal others of their wounds? Is that not a necromantic artifact, because it serves the narrative of a healer?


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      • #63
        So here's what I see happenning, as I'm not going to play your game of nitpicking every statement so you can set yourself up as right no matter what come syour way.

        The general premise as I understand it is you are of an opinion that there is a specific criterion by which things must be a particular magical material. If it has any overtly elemetnal thematic, it must be of that material. And that Artifacts which are of different materials which don't normally manifest magical elements, it's that way mostly to deny DBs something or to dilute the nature of magical materials.

        You're stuck in what amounts to a semantic argument, wherein you have setup criteria by which something canon currently doesn't fit, and so you are trying to find a reason why the writing is wrong. This is why I think you are over-thinking things. Those Artifacts could be something else. They aren't. And some things that are not jade could have been jade. They simply aren't, because the author of that Artifact found that there might be a compelling story for the creator and the material had a conneciton enough to work. The general guidelines for materials are that, guildelines. The Artifact in question is moonsilver because that was at the time the author was writing it, they thought that's what fit. Just like how Distaff is moonsilver, even though it is just as much about the silk and growth things that fit jade. Just like your hypothetical soulsteel thing that ate souls but let you heal wiht them would probably be soulsteel because it eats souls.

        I refuse to give you "concrete examples" because the nature of Artifacts in my view means that there is little to no such thing as a concrete example. Some things will obviously fit the themes of the material, like Volcano Cutter, Soul Mirror, or Gnomen. Others stretch it or have overlapping themes. Asophodel and Perdurant Vault both basically are in the end weapons who have littel worlds in them, but their materials inform the worlds that are in them and the powers they get.

        This means that in the end, you'll end up with edge cases and weirdness. Some things are the Artifact htey are because they take their material's themes and run it to the hilt. Others are the theme shuffled. Those Artifacts are elemental. But that htey are elemental is just a subset of why they are what they are. Frost-Thorn Knuckles are moonsilver that happens to do moonsilver stuff with an ice aesthetic. It ocul dhave been blue jade that did its thing with a predatory aesthetic. But the authors chose the former, not the latter. And that's probably all there is to why it is. This doesn't give special properties to moonsilver or non-jade materials you seem to preport. Because in Exalted, especially thsi edition, things don't fit into nice categoreis and the rules are there only until an author or creator has something else they want to do.

        Again, guidelines aren't rules.


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        • #64
          As a note, the hostility a lot of folks have in this thread to this entire thing is your statement here:

          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          ... The variety in magical materials is now primarily about granting or restricting access to certain splats.

          That's why Stormcaller and Frost-Thorn Knuckles aren't blue jade; because their resonant effects were too good for Dragon-Blooded.

          That's why Rainwalker is primarily blue jade but incorporates enough moonsilver to bend the rules; because its resonant effects were kosher for both Dragon-Blooded and Lunars. It includes moonsilver merely to make it less weird that Lunars are fully resonant with it, since they have no inherent connection to its elemental themes.

          Karvara is only moonsilver because its resonant effects were okay for Lunars. If that wasn't okay, it would have been orichalcum as easily as Stormcaller....

          This is important becuase Vance didn't say this. He said that the specific Artifact has the effects it does because that's the legend it has. The end. It said nothing about moonsilver in general. It said nothing about materials in genral really. Nothing about effects being what they were to gate off other splats were in his statement. Frost-Thorn Knuckles are what they are because a Lunar made them and they were from a place that had those themes. This said nothing about moonsilver. It said nothing about the other Artifacts you go ranting off on. You in effect got an answer on something else, and jumped a dozen steps to argue something different. It's a non-sequitur.

          You're the one drawing the conclusion that the guidelines are meaningless because they're exceptionless. But I think it's worth remembeirng that most htings do follow the rules. This isn't logic or Popper's view of science here. Exceptions exist. Things get exotic. But generally, the guidelines apply. So I am just baffled what your issue is other than trying to prove how much clever/clearer you are than the authors here.


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          • #65
            Originally posted by Blaque View Post
            The general premise as I understand it is you are of an opinion that there is a specific criterion by which things must be a particular magical material. If it has any overtly elemetnal thematic, it must be of that material.
            Or it must have a good reason.

            For example, being forged not merely in the Far North, but within a furnace of frozen flame or the Elemental Pole of Air itself. Or being tempered not with qualities of mundane beasts (the most impressive of which doesn't even inhabit the arctic regions), but with the Essence of some icy magical beast or Air elemental or Winter Folk raksha.

            Again, I point to the green jade sword, Spring Razor. Green jade doesn't need any justification to produce poison or flowers, but the sword was still made with the Essence of an elemental wood dragon. Orichalcum claims to have power over disastrous forces, yet Stormcaller needs to imprison a second (or perhaps even third) circle storm-demon to attain its power.

            I'm not stuck. I've moved past the original post. I'm definitely willing to embrace exotic materials lending an artifact an aesthetic to its powers that the magical material normally wouldn't allow... but I can still disagree that a particular artifact's backstory does enough to justify such a thing, especially when other examples go farther to justify powers within the wheelhouse of their primary material.


            Just like your hypothetical soulsteel thing that ate souls but let you heal wiht them would probably be soulsteel because it eats souls.
            I never said the hypothetical weapon was made of soulsteel. The entire point was that it wouldn't be made of soulsteel, but would still be considered necromantic.

            It was meant as a contrast against your assertion that Frost-Thorn Knuckles wasn't elemental even though it conjured (attunement bonus) and manipulated (Rimebound Predator Endurance) the element of Air. With just as much flexibility as Smiling Razors conjures and manipulates Fire.


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            • #66
              "Drawing on a hunting beast’s tenacity, the wielder numbs herself to cold and pain."

              RPE ain't got fuck all to do with air. That is 100% lunar shit drawing on the power of polar bears and stuff.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                I'm not stuck. I've moved past the original post. I'm definitely willing to embrace exotic materials lending an artifact an aesthetic to its powers that the magical material normally wouldn't allow... but I can still disagree that a particular artifact's backstory does enough to justify such a thing, especially when other examples go farther to justify powers within the wheelhouse of their primary material.
                Was this five page thread created because an artifact didnt say that it had Jade engravings, that it was tempered with the blood from heart of an ice elemental or mentioned a made up imaginary northern beast that didnt even exist as a QC animal?
                Last edited by ale137; 05-19-2018, 08:33 PM.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by ale137 View Post
                  Was this five page thread created because an artifact didnt say that it had engravings, Jade or that it was tempered with the blood from heart of and ice elemental or mentioned a made up an imaginary northern beast that didnt even exist as a QC animal?
                  That wasn't my mindset when I made the thread.


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                    @draktor

                    If I was looking to design a weapon which served as the bane of a specific creature:

                    * orichalcum if the targets are creatures of darkness

                    * soulsteel, if the targets are a human profession or class or ethnic group or something, so you can turn the souls of dead members of that group against the living members

                    * moonsilver for animals, beasts, creatures with distinct physical qualities like being small and fast or gigantic huge - such as what you’re going for

                    * starmetal depends on the particular divine energies from which it was derived, so the right backstory justifies anything as long as the implementation seems like Fate magic

                    * jade can be used against elemental targets; Fire can consume Wood, or consume other Fire, or be bent to melt Air’s ice, evaporate Water... Wood can be used to slurp up Water and desiccate other Wood and living creatures...
                    Hey Sunder,

                    I don't see anything wrong with your thoughts on the limits you are placing there if those are the ones you envision for your table. I would like to add a few thoughts on these as well just from the limited experiences I have had in exalted so far.

                    * Orichalcum - Traditionally a bane of creatures of darkness. due to its guideline from AotC you could really use it to be a bane of near anything. But it would definitely be easiest to be used against creatures of darkness/

                    * Soulsteel - Traditionally great for using as a material against living things somewhat be really would shine against the dead. Again I can see how it could also be added to make a bane for a lot of things as well based on the guideline of how it can effect souls.

                    * Moonsilver - Honestly I think moonsilver makes one of the best foils for a bane against fate and fate based effects and creatures. However due to its very nature it is also pretty easy to make it a bane of many things pretty easily too.

                    * Starmetal - Starmetal in my personal only opinion would be the hardest metal to make bane weapon from. The overall theme of the material make it the hardest for me personally to bend to making it a bane weapon. This one I would have the hardest time with myself.

                    * Jade - Jade is a pretty straight forward material on making something weapon wise with a bane quality. While its range of what it can threaten may be a tad smaller the sheer overall versatility of it makes it pretty easy to incorporate a bane theme on a weapon.

                    Hope this helps out.

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