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  • #31
    The WFHW spells seem very unbalanced. Either very overpowered or with utterly devastating Distortion effects.


    Wisdom of the Ancient Sages (Homebrew sorcerous initiation based on anima) | Expanded spells & charm for Elemental summoning

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    • #32
      Really? How so? I haven't seen any in play yet.


      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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      • #33
        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
        Really? How so? I haven't seen any in play yet.
        Disclaimer: I haven't used them in actual play.

        Beckoning The Sky Cthulhu is just "make it rain (thunder, windy, etc)", the spell. Something you could already do with Workings and takes too long to do in combat. anything you'd want to do with it takes 7+ successes and I wonder what the devs think is so valuable about making a thunderstorm for a few hours. Good for RP and maybe shaking off an army or navy for a little while. Not so good for actual adventuring.

        Floral Ferry is like Sail- it's usefulness depends entirely on the campaign. One one hand, it's an instant boat that is the fastest ship in the game, OTOH it's just a boat big enough for a dozen men.

        Keel Cleaves the Clouds is in the same umbrella. Awesome or useless. it lets you fly a boat on clouds (but not make clouds)

        Impervious Sphere of Water gives full cover, and it requires a Strength+Athletics check vs equal to your intelligence to breach. Most sorcerers go for 5 Int, which means it will take a dedicated athlete to break through that- 10 dice to get 5 successes discounting charms. Battlegroups? man, screw battlegroups. They aren't breaking that. And even when one of your Exalted Equivalent foes does break it- its overwhelmingly likely that your allies are going to push a 2-on-1 advantage against them. On the off chance you did this alone, you are probably at death's door anyway or are trying to Hold The Line. This spell will be crutch in a lot of situations.

        Seafoam Eidolon is the Useless Useful Spell in this book. It's only use is to fool people with a doppleganger, but they can also roll against it to see if they notice. This is really only worth using in the coveted unicorn of rpgs: the fabled Heavy RP Narrative Focus game with Realistic Longterm Consequences. It'd be amazing in Game of Thrones. It's worthless to the Wandering Murder Gods. There's Larceny charms that replicate this.

        speaking of GoT, Spoke the Wooden Face (which I want to call Spoke of a Wooden Fence all the time) is useful if you have a dedicated group of other sorcerers and like an entire spy cult build around turning you into a Sorecerous Telegraph. The problem is it's not passively aware, so you can't just carve a face in the war room of Peleps Kudan and get a spider sense that something Plot Relevant is happening. Great for GoT, poor for Exalted.

        Thunder Wolf's Cry is the interesting one. It's designed to deal a little damage to a few targets or a single battle groups (like DoOB), but the real meat of the spell is, to me, the Penalty on 10s rule, which favors focusing on one opponent and essentially nerfing them for a round or two. Expect it to be an opening play to nerf the Big Bad while the other Solars Nova them. OTOH its an AoE with spread out damage whose effect triggers on a 1-in-10 die roll. It seems like it wants to go in 2 directions.

        Virtuous Guardian of Flame is awesome and is like having a pocket War Lion Stance hanging around you. it won't win you any battles on it's own, but since most sorcerers are also able combatants it lets you make take risks without taking risks, if you know what i mean. OTOH my players already have an elemental or blood ape hang around them to do the same thing (but not as well)

        I don't like Earth Guardian. It's a 12 hour zone of +1 defense. really situational, and there are a lot of ways to kill someone playing "the floor is lava".

        Devil Maw has been talked about. it's solid and has amazing flavor.

        So yeah, Sphere of Water does something really useful, and Devil Maw is very strong offensive spell, while V Guardian of Flame is a very strong defensive spell. The others range from situation (Floral Ferry and Cloud Sailing) to Useless (Eidolon, Earth Guardian), and "thematic" (Weather control, Wooden Face)
        Last edited by Sorcerous Overlord; 06-14-2018, 05:15 AM.


        ..."But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me"

        Message me for Japanese translations.

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        • #34
          I've got one sorcerer who regularly casts combat magic in a game I've been running. Death of Obsidian Butterflies is a go-to for him, but Mists of Eventide has also been used to great effect. He's really good at trimming down or destroying battle groups. For good or ill, he's rarely gotten much mileage out of his Shaping Ritual. In contrast to some of the posts, he's cast multiple times in fights. Of course, he's got a 5 other Solars kicking ass and screening him, not to mention a Familiar who often spends his time taking Defend Other actions on him, so... YMMV, I guess?
          From an external perspective, I think getting a Shaping Ritual that lets you store a battery of motes might prove more effective than stunt-based or Intimacy-based options, depending on your intentions and your playstyle.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post
            Beckoning The Sky Cthulhu is just "make it rain (thunder, windy, etc)", the spell. Something you could already do with Workings and takes too long to do in combat. anything you'd want to do with it takes 7+ successes and I wonder what the devs think is so valuable about making a thunderstorm for a few hours. Good for RP and maybe shaking off an army or navy for a little while. Not so good for actual adventuring.

            Apparently the ability to apply a -3 penalty on Awareness checks versus the group's stealth by conjuring mist, hiding your tracks beneath a thick blanket of snow so the Wyld Hunt can't track you down without a significant investment in survival, turning all ground to difficult environment with a rainstorm while your group laughs and speeds away on your Stormwind Rider, and manipulating temperature to create low-key environmental hazards that may not do much against meaningful opposition but will sure as hell fuck over any battle groups they brought along is not relevant for actual adventuring?

            Not to mention that the ability to conjure rain alone broadens the usefulness of otherwise niche terrestrial Charms considerably.

            TLDR: Beckoning is an amazing spell and I'm totally gonna pick it up even as a Single Point stylist who operates on a pretty tight WP budget.


            Evocations for the demonic tattoos gained from the Pact with Mara sorcerous initiation || Pyre-Kindler (Soulsteel and Red Jade Grimscythe, Artifact 3) || Tenebrous Descent (Stormcaller's Black Jade Reaver Daiklave cousin, Artifact 5)
            Advice for running the corebook shikari antagonists

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            • #36
              I've already bought it, though I haven't used it yet. I think this:
              Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
              Something you could already do with Workings and takes too long to do in combat. anything you'd want to do with it takes 7+ successes and I wonder what the devs think is so valuable about making a thunderstorm for a few hours.
              is looking at it the wrong way.
              Yes, it's too long to use in combat, but it's not for combat.
              Workings is no good, because they take at least a week, and cost XP. Fine if you're doing it once, but if you're either ensuring good harvests for your country, or bad harvests for your enemies, you want to cast it multiple times.

              Our game is set in a desert country, and I think it may be quite useful for getting rain for starving peasants. Or, if we predict a devastating sandstorm, stopping it.

              I don't think weather control is something that's amazing in most games, but I reckon it's worth 8xp. It is, after all, pretty much the only way to control the weather.

              Floral Ferry is like Sail- it's usefulness depends entirely on the campaign. One one hand, it's an instant boat that is the fastest ship in the game, OTOH it's just a boat big enough for a dozen men.
              Yeah, I kind of agree. I had Floral Ferry on my 2nd ed No Moon. It was useful for getting the whole party and some equipment along at a fast clip. But it's not nearly as fast as Solar Athletics charms, or summoning a whirlwind to spin you along. And you need a river. Often we'd zoom along a river part of the way and then have to walk the rest.


              Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
              Spoke the Wooden Face (which I want to call Spoke of a Wooden Fence all the time) ... Great for GoT, poor for Exalted.
              We've actually found this quite useful, because unlike a lot of communication spells, it allows two-way communication.
              Our Full Moon sorcerer carved one wooden face at each PC's base (the Djala temple, the Rabbit-totem Lunar's village, the sorcerer-queen's city, and a grove near their mutant puppet-king's capital), and everyone kept one servant whose job was to guard the tree. The sorcerer would have a quick pop-in to each face at sunset. If there was any important news, the servant could tell him. This way each PC was able to keep tabs on their base when they were off adventuring. Their underlings could tell them if there were any problems back home.
              Also, when the PCs were back at base, they could communicate with each other through the Full Moon.

              Note that Spoke the Wooden Face only costs 5sm, 1wp, and if you successfully cast it you get that 1wp back. So it's basically free.

              Seafoam Eidolon is the Useless Useful Spell in this book. It's only use is to fool people with a doppleganger, but they can also roll against it to see if they notice. This is really only worth using in the coveted unicorn of rpgs: the fabled Heavy RP Narrative Focus game with Realistic Longterm Consequences. It'd be amazing in Game of Thrones. It's worthless to the Wandering Murder Gods. There's Larceny charms that replicate this.
              What Larceny charms? I don't think it's amazing, but making illusions can be pretty useful. I've seen them used pretty creatively in DnD. It's not very difficult to see through, but it's not easy either, and you can only see through it at short range.

              (Also, I'd say the game I play is slightly more Heavy RP Narrative Focus game with Realistic Longterm Consequences than Wandering Murder Gods. Though I suppose we've fallen out with our Dawn because he's a Murder God and no-one else is. He doesn't wander that much though, he brutally rules the jungle with an iron fist.
              I suppose I'd probably call it Moderate RP non-wandering Murder Gods with Realistic Longterm Consequences.)

              I don't like Earth Guardian. It's a 12 hour zone of +1 defense.
              +1 Defence against people outside the zone. It does nothing against melee attacks. And the damage is pretty low. I kind of agree with you.

              Impervious Sphere of Water gives full cover, and it requires a Strength+Athletics check vs equal to your intelligence to breach.
              See, this is one I can't actually see as that useful. It gives you full cover... but also gives your enemies full cover. I guess, as you say, maybe it's something to cast when on low health, but it costs a fair bit, so I can't see myself getting that much use out of it. If my sorcerer is on low health, it seems better to run away. Maybe if I'm fighting a lot of archers? It does seem very much something you'd cast to take you out of the fight temporarily and hope your allies can win.
              Still, most sorcerer PCs are going to have allies. I guess you might also have demon guards or something who can fight while you hide in your bubble.


              "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post
                Great for GoT, poor for Exalted.
                Now I could swear that Game of Thrones is mentioned as an inspiration for Exalted in general, and the Dragon Blooded in particular.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                • #38
                  Regarding Beckoning that Which Stirs the Sky... It pairs really well with Keel Cleaves the Clouds. Really, that's a toolkit spell. I don't think it's especially strong in a vacuum, but creative use of it can be a nice boost or even enable actions that might otherwise be impossible.
                  And hey, who doesn't want to be able to set the weather to whatever they need for their (melo)dramatic speech?

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                  • #39
                    Weather manipulation does become increasingly effective when you can sail a warship right over an inland mountain fortress and release the horde of Fog Sharks you had stored in your cargo bay...

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post
                      Something you could already do with Workings and takes too long to do in combat
                      Oh sure, it's too long to do in combat, but not too long to do if you know that a fight is going to start in a little while, and far quicker than a working.

                      ​Do your wandering murder gods never plan ahead? Set traps? Do they only ever live in the moment?

                      Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
                      anything you'd want to do with it takes 7+ successes
                      So the only time that a raging tempest is ever useful or desirable is when in the most cheerful weather possible? It's never useful to turn bad weather into weather that kills people?

                      ​And the assertion that the only thing you'd ever want is the most extreme weather... let me ask you, when there's a decent rain out, not enough to kill people, but enough to drench them, do you, personally, go about your business in it as though it's nothing?

                      Never mind what it means for general production of water. Most people in and parts of Creation don't have access to indoor plumbing.

                      Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
                      Seafoam Eidolon is the Useless Useful Spell in this book. It's only use is to fool people with a doppleganger, but they can also roll against it to see if they notice. This is really only worth using in the coveted unicorn of rpgs: the fabled Heavy RP Narrative Focus game with Realistic Longterm Consequences. It'd be amazing in Game of Thrones. It's worthless to the Wandering Murder Gods.
                      I'm going to repeat the question about whether these people ever bother to set traps. There's also probably something useful that can be done with distractions. Or even establishing an alibi.

                      Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
                      There's Larceny charms that replicate this.
                      ​Which ones are those?

                      Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
                      the Penalty on 10s rule, which favors focusing on one opponent and essentially nerfing them for a round or two.
                      You've misread the spell; it doesn't penalise 10s, it inflicts a crippling penalty equal to the number of 10s in the sorcerer's damage roll.

                      Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
                      most sorcerers are also able combatants
                      What are you basing that on?

                      Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
                      and "thematic" (Weather control, Wooden Face)
                      ​You know, with the scare quotes, and everything else that you've said about disparaging the idea of Game of Thrones style intrigue in the game, I'm curious what you think the entire Socialize Ability is for.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #41
                        Getting a lot of blowback on my opinions of the spells, especially Control Weather. That's cool, we're here to discuss stuff after all. Let's address some specific remarks first.


                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        ​Which (LARCENY CHARMS THAT REPLICATE SEAFOAM EIDOLON) ones are those?
                        Parenthesis mine. Flawlessly impenetrable Disguise doesn't let you summon a fake copy of someone (what the spell does) but it does replicate the effect of "Pretend to be someone you aren't". It also can't be opposed except by explicit, truth finding magic, which would have foiled Eidolon anyway. There's also the aspect of faking an animal or an item, which seems like it could have some cool Heist Movie properties. Any forgery can be made with the appropriate Craft though, and I don't know what I would call for to disguise an animal as a another one if you were trying to pull a switch. However both of these are incredibly specific and can be solved in other ways.

                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        You've misread the spell; it doesn't penalise 10s, it inflicts a crippling penalty equal to the number of 10s in the sorcerer's damage roll.
                        That's literally what I just said. It applies "penalties on 10s" that you roll. You misread me. Unless of course you mean the target takes a crippling penalty equal to the number of 10s rolled on all damage rolls (including those for other characters), which RAW I do not agree with.


                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        What are you basing that (MOST SORCERERS ARE CAN ALSO FIGHT SANS SORCERY) on?
                        My personal experience, in a thread called "Your experience with combat sorcery". Also, on these very forums I've only seen a grand total of one poster (in this thread, actually) say they play with a no-combat-alternatives sorcerer. And in that party there are "5 dedicated combat machines" so the Sorcerer just hangs back.

                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        ​You know, with the scare quotes, and everything else that you've said about disparaging the idea of Game of Thrones style intrigue in the game, I'm curious what you think the entire Socialize Ability is for.
                        Socializing. Ok, to be serious, my 2e character was a no combat charms Diplomancer Eclipse who mainlined Socialize. I get what it does. That's my favorite part of the game. The problem is the same in Exalted for almost all RPGs, players tend towards solving hard conflicts with violence after diplomacy has failed, and sometimes before. It's part of escapist fantasy. I do love politicking, i love intrigue, i love setting up inter-personal conflicts with meaningful NPCs. That's the part of Storytelling I excel at... but this is Exalted. Everyone not only has a hammer, everyone gets to choose what kind of hammer they have and what kind of nails all their problems are. Wooden Face is a spell whose usefullness depends on you doing a lot of legwork to set up a meaningful utility out of it and get some plot-feedback. and that's good. That has use. THe problem is, that has use in a very Doyalist sense. It's telling the ST "Here's a thing I can do, please make it useful". And as an ST I would reward that... but that logic applies to almost every decision. I play in The West because one player wanted to be a Sail supernal. The plot features a bunch of ghosts and spirits because one player wanted to be a traveling exorcist. etc. At that level of abstraction/meta, everything you do will be useful because you are asking the ST to make it useful. I started including a gang war element because one person joined as a Night Caste and had Socialize and Larceny. Getting back to Wooden Face, it mechanically provides you with a more flavorful version of taking a background merit of spies and courtesans, because it's main use is "invent a reason to get information"

                        Now, on to Control Weather, Beckoning That Which Stirs The Sky is really, really cool. It's Awesome, in fact. My character would be blown away by someone who could summon the rain or calm the seas. That's a cool thing to do in game, when you have the opportunity to do something cool. Aluminium posted some neat tricks to do with it, and yeah, those are all cool. You know what else is cool? Everything. Slipping the Wyld Hunt for a few hours because you made rain wash away your tracks (In an area about 5-10 miles wide) is as cool as paying a Guild Contact to smuggle you out in a crate or fly away at 100mph on Stormwind Rider or basically anything else. The Narrative value of "I can change the weather" is something already doable on a longer scale, and the short term benefits fall into "Another hammer in the tool box". If we pop back up to sculpted Seafoam Eidolon, i make the same case there- you are using a Sorcery to do things available by other means, which lessens the utility of it.

                        Don't get me wrong guys, I like taking Fluff over Crunch and choosing Themes over Mechanics. My write up of my groups first session praised the players for making characters with cool hooks that weren't "mechanically optimal". I even namechecked stormwind fallacy. But I didn't write that post to fangush about all of the Fun Things To Do In Exalted, I made that post to Critique the Usefulness of Spells.

                        Just so we don't argue at cross purposes, here's how I evaluate spells.

                        The S.Overlord's on-the-fly rubric of spell usefulness is as follows:
                        1) Is what it does useful?
                        2) How well does it do that?
                        3) How hard is it to to that thing by other means?
                        4) How easy is it to use?

                        Most of my complaints fall on number 3. I made the case that Floral Ferry is useful not because its an instant boat, but because its the fastest boat. Keel Cleaves the Clouds nails 1, 2, and 3, but it struggles with 4- you need to set up a way to fly on clouds and then decide what your going to do with flying on clouds. Stalwart Earth Guardian fails at 1, 2, 3 and 4. It's main use isn't very useful, the bonus is small, it's easy to replace the bonus, and it requires a long set up for a short duration. Virtuous Guardian of the Flame succeeds on all counts. It applies a defense (1), with a high parry (2), which is hard to get (at Parry 6), and is a set it and forget it spell. Sculpted Seafoam Eidolon struggles with 2 but it really struggles with 3. I'd be hard pressed to think of a time when I didn't have a better use of my 8 xp.

                        Agree, Disagree, that's your prerogative. I've made the case for my grading system.


                        ..."But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me"

                        Message me for Japanese translations.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post
                          Aluminium posted some neat tricks to do with it, and yeah, those are all cool. You know what else is cool? Everything. Slipping the Wyld Hunt for a few hours because you made rain wash away your tracks (In an area about 5-10 miles wide) is as cool as paying a Guild Contact to smuggle you out in a crate or fly away at 100mph on Stormwind Rider or basically anything else. The Narrative value of "I can change the weather" is something already doable on a longer scale, and the short term benefits fall into "Another hammer in the tool box".
                          I would strongly argue that the broad applicability of the spell makes it less "another hammer in the toolbox" and more like "another, smaller toolbox in your toolbox". This may be one of the most versatile spells a terrestrial circle sorcerer has access to, right after Demon of the First Circle/Summon Elemental.

                          Also, some of these benefits are very real and relevant: a -3 visual penalty goes beyond "cool" ("I can allow even the least subtle characters on our team to sneak past these mortal guards with us"), because it effectively acts as a non-Charm bonus for the party's sneakmaster (who can either use this as a cap-breaking effect or save a bunch of motes on her rolls). Not to mention the immense value at-will access to rain has for a Dragon-Blooded who likes being in Water Aura: All-Encompassing Earth Sense now allows you to ignore that pesky "must be connected to the ground" clause, you can use Earth Bears Witness without having to switch your Aura state, and let's not forget Flow With Strife, which instantly becomes probably the best perfect a Terrestrial has access to (Bottomless Depths Defense doesn't count as it's being reworked right now).


                          Evocations for the demonic tattoos gained from the Pact with Mara sorcerous initiation || Pyre-Kindler (Soulsteel and Red Jade Grimscythe, Artifact 3) || Tenebrous Descent (Stormcaller's Black Jade Reaver Daiklave cousin, Artifact 5)
                          Advice for running the corebook shikari antagonists

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post
                            It applies "penalties on 10s" that you roll. You misread me.
                            ​I misread you because you wrote a sentence that reads precisely as though it applies penalties to the 10s of other people.


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                            • #44
                              What exactly is beckoning that which stirs the sky?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                                What exactly is beckoning that which stirs the sky?
                                It's a Terrestrial Circle spell in What Fire Has Wrought. You call down these giant arthropoid limbs to move the weather around to suit your whim. The degree of change you want to bring about affects the difficulty of the roll, and distorting it causes the opposite of the intended effect to happen.

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