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  • Bronze was better, but that doesn't mean iron was totally useless for making tools and weapons. And the societies that this story comes from (north-west Europe) were not societies that used much bronze.

    Of course, it's probably also noteable that the myths mostly involve not weapons, but things like iron horseshoes over the door (which I still see occasionally on old houses), iron knives under the door, etc, and are actually mostly way, way, after the iron age.

    But that doesn't work so well with fantasy action games.



    Anyway, of the ideas suggested so far, I like the Earth essence one the best. Though i can see the value in maybe not getting too technical with it.
    Certainly, I can think that in the game, people will have different origin stories they tell of why cold iron harms Raksha... and it could even be that this is what makes it work, the collective legend. Though that's not an answer I'd like, personally.


    "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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    • The Dragon-Blooded mythos:

      Iron and its powerful connection to Earth Essence was not the only Bane to Fair Folk, its just the only one left. Each element used to have a Bane used to protect its borders. But the Anathema and their snake oil salesmen of diplomats were too lenient on trade agreements, letting the elemental courts who guarded these secrets, and one by one the four directional elements lost their secret weapons. The heated Magnetite of the South, the acid-etched coral blades of the West, no longer proof against the Raksha. Only Iron and itz Courts upon the Blessed Isle stay protected from the Fair Folk and their sneaky types. And only the Immaculate Order can keep the Courts in line and make sure no more concessions are made to the Wyld.

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      • As a ST for a group, iron works as a bane to fey, because it does. Steel doesn't work as a bane because it doesn't. Attempting to apply metallurgic composition is as ridiculous as people who still believe the Earth is flat. Creation is a world of magic, demons, and gods (among other things). Our modern science doesn't apply. I could ask dozens of questions that science can't answer. Why does leaving gold out in the sun, from dawn to dusk for a 100+ years, turn it into orichalcum? Why can't a shaped fey that entered Creation leave and become unshaped again? How can a person take someone else's shape and memories by eating their heart? I could keep going, but I think I've made my point clear. Science doesn't apply to Creation the way it does to the real world.

        If you're a ST, and you don't like the "iron-bane" schtick, use the golden rule and change it. If you're a player and it bugs you, talk with your ST, but realize he has the final say. Just realize the canon answer is "iron works, steel does not". It was published this way, and has been reaffirmed by the Devs in the "Ask the Devs" thread. So the canon answer isn't likely to change.
        Last edited by TalosX; 06-11-2018, 05:30 PM.

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        • Originally posted by TalosX View Post
          As a ST for a group, iron works as a bane to fey, because it does. Steel doesn't work as a bane because it doesn't. Attempting to apply metallurgic composition is as ridiculous as people who still believe the Earth is flat. Creation is a world of magic, demons, and gods (among other things). Our modern science doesn't apply. I could ask dozens of questions that science can't answer. Why does leaving gold out in the sun, from dawn to dusk for a 100+ years, turn it into orichalcum? Why can't a shaped fey that entered Creation leave and become unshaped again? How can a person take someone else's shape and memories by eating their heart? I could keep going, but I think I've made my point clear. Science doesn't apply to Creation the way it does to the real world.

          If you're a ST, and you don't like the "iron-bane" schtick, use the golden rule and change it. If you're a player and it bugs you, talk with your ST, but realize he has the final say. Just realize the canon answer is "iron works, steel does not". It was published this way, and has been reaffirmed by the Devs in the "Ask the Devs" thread. So the canon answer isn't likely to change.
          There is a big difference between science not being applicable and logic or reason not existing. Yes the difference can be because of magic. But there should be reason and patterns behind it. Someone who is a master of occult or an appropriate lore should know why iron works and not steel or at the very least have a solid theory. DrLoveMonkey explained this far better than I could.

          The issue here is how does the process of making steel differ enough from wrought iron that one is fae bane and the other is not? Its not about house ruling out the percieved contradiction, but about describing an in setting reason why there is no contradiction.

          For some reason I am now imagining situations where fae teach people to make steel just to deal with less iron. Possibly even iron in the ground stabilises against the wyld so they encourage mining of it to get it out.

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          • The prospect of correcting every person that comes in with misreadings to the effect of "why are you looking for scientific explanations" feels both exhausting and unbelievably tedious, so perhaps we could just have a general moratorium on them?

            (I know we're still going to get them because I'm hardly one to make some kind of official statement, but the last few days have left me quite irritable)


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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            • A summary of the thread (as I understand it):
              There is nothing that can be said of steel that cannot also be said of either wrought or cast iron, vis-a-vis how it's worked, the composition, etc. armyofwhispers finds this an interesting topic.
              Arguments addressed so far include
              • they're different because they're different, in this fantasy universe
                • Acceptable on a table-by-table basis, but some people are interested in a deeper response.
              • the difference is in their literal name
                • Old Realm has occult significance, and the words are different in Old Realm
                • A sorcerer did a working to make iron dangerous to the fae, and someone else twisted it so steel doesn't count
                • A diplomatic pact was struck that made iron dangerous, but the fae weaseled out of it by pointing out that they didn't specify steel
                • Some combination of the above three.
              • the god of iron hates fae, while the god of steel doesn't
                • That's not technically how gods work, but point taken
              • cold iron is effective because it hasn't been worked
                • Then why do wrought and cast iron work?
              • iron is symbolic of Earth Essence and stasis
                • Then why doesn't white jade work?
              • iron is symbolic of human working and technology
                • Then why doesn't bronze or copper work?
              • steel should work, the devs just don't know metallurgy
                • Petition to add remedial metallurgy courses for the devs as a stretch goal to the next Kickstarter.
                • Also, something about the interesting setup where people use substandard iron weapons in case they have to be used against fae, etc etc.
              • fae are just like that, it's nonsense because they're fae
                • I personally dislike this argument but I guess it is definitionally hard to argue against
              It is not my understanding that this thread is an attack on people who don't care about the difference between iron and steel, or even an argument that steel should work. It's wondering if there's an in-universe explanation.

              Personally, I favor the diplomatic explanation, or maybe the sorcerous one. Making iron dangerous to Wyld natives seems like a suitable Solar 3 working.

              EDIT: A couple more explanations I missed: Isator's suggestion that it has to do with a history of charms against fair folk, and Cryo-Seraph's suggestion that there were a group of banes, each symbolically tied to the elements, that were effective, but that only iron remains. For some reason this seems... more compelling to me than the idea that only iron is symbolically effective?
              Last edited by Ellis; 06-11-2018, 09:56 PM.


              But sexually.

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              • What if the weakness doesn't come from Creation? Like in Warhammer 40K they once handwaved the fear of death and the image of the Grim Reaper as a side effect of an entity called the Nightbringer that once tormented pretty much all of life to the extent that fear of it was carved into everything's DNA.

                So what if there was some iron monster, something like an Ishvara class Hanya that just sowed such horrors and devastation amongst the fey of it's time that the old horror still reverberates through the fey of the current time. Just a somewhat amusing story idea that came to mind.

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                • Random thought: if you do want a partly-sciencey if also kind of ironic reason then steel having the highest percent iron (after accounting for slag inclusions in wrought iron) is probably the way to go. As in, say that the iron bane stops working if the iron is too pure. How could that possibly be? Um... I’m sure someone here can up with something.
                  Last edited by Sith_Happens; 06-12-2018, 12:09 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                    Random thought: if you do want a partly-sciencey I’d rather if also kind of ironic reason then steel having the highest percent iron (after accounting for slag inclusions in wrought iron) is probably the way to go. As in, say that the iron bane stops working if the iron is too pure. How could that possibly be? Um... I’m sure someone here can up with something.
                    Well obviously, its the slag/carbon that's actually the problem. :P


                    I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

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                    • A steel weapon back in the day wasn't just applying the right amount of carbon to the iron, but a lot of pounding to get slag out and even out impurities.

                      All of Creation is toxic to the Raksha.

                      Iron is a very common element.

                      I'm also buying into the idea mentioned by others in this thread, that iron being connected to the element of Earth, and that's why it being dangerous to the Fair Folks. Not because of any story agreed by all in the Wyld, but because it is what makes Creation "Not Wyld".

                      So why iron but not steel? What I will go with myself is that it is not the iron itself, but because that stabilization essence binds to iron. The work of making steel into a useful blade or armor will also drive out said essence. There might be technologies to work steel into useful weapons without driving out the necessary essence, but not yet discovered (or if anyone have, they haven't shared).

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                      • Sidereal Mythos:

                        So word around the watercooler, i talked to a gal, knows a guy who knows a draconic censor that has this theory. We used to have all weapons work on the Fair Folk, as all of the metal for the weapons fell under the Bureau of Nature under Luna's purview. Her purview includes Raksha bane.

                        But ever since the rise of the War Gods and their move into the Bureau of Heaven, some of those Gods of metallurgy have moved offices, and as they are no longer with the Bureau of Nature, no longer have the access to Luna's right to have her weapons hurt Raksha as well. Copper, Bronze, Steel, and any of the Magical Materials, all fall under uses of War now. Only Wrought Iron and base iron remains, still used primarily for farming implements and looked down upon by the Steel Gods for its brittleness and need for constant repairs.

                        The real problem is that most of these Gods don't leave their spots in heaven, leaving gods of the Forge to hang out in Creation for them, so most don't even know that they've lost their rights to be the bane to Raksha.

                        But if BlackIce Shadow expects me to send a memo on it without an apology for what he did at my soiree last month, then he can take an extended mission for the Underworld for all i care

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                        • Leaving aside white jade, if iron was so rich with Earth Essence, it would feature into more Earth-aspected Charms. But those tend to exclude metal more often than not.


                          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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                          • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                            Leaving aside white jade, if iron was so rich with Earth Essence, it would feature into more Earth-aspected Charms. But those tend to exclude metal more often than not.
                            Well... Earth Essence is more than "the stuff that makes things stable"

                            Iron is also, after all, also connected to magnets; another binding force.

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                            • White jade doesn't work because it's too magic. Raksha are stories. They're not hurt any more than normal by legendary weapons, they're hurt by random chunks of metal that nobody would look twice at.

                              The random iron poker suddenly becomes a fae slaying iron poker. And it gets that narrative by ripping it out of the fae. That's what does the damage.

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                              • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                                The prospect of correcting every person that comes in with misreadings to the effect of "why are you looking for scientific explanations" feels both exhausting and unbelievably tedious, so perhaps we could just have a general moratorium on them?

                                (I know we're still going to get them because I'm hardly one to make some kind of official statement, but the last few days have left me quite irritable)
                                This is pretty much why I haven't posted on this thread in several days. It has become increasingly frustrating trying to explain to people. Plus the occasional person attack are quite wearing.

                                Originally posted by Ellis View Post
                                A summary of the thread (as I understand it):
                                There is nothing that can be said of steel that cannot also be said of either wrought or cast iron, vis-a-vis how it's worked, the composition, etc. armyofwhispers finds this an interesting topic.
                                Arguments addressed so far include
                                • they're different because they're different, in this fantasy universe
                                  • Acceptable on a table-by-table basis, but some people are interested in a deeper response.
                                • the difference is in their literal name
                                  • Old Realm has occult significance, and the words are different in Old Realm
                                  • A sorcerer did a working to make iron dangerous to the fae, and someone else twisted it so steel doesn't count
                                  • A diplomatic pact was struck that made iron dangerous, but the fae weaseled out of it by pointing out that they didn't specify steel
                                  • Some combination of the above three.
                                • the god of iron hates fae, while the god of steel doesn't
                                  • That's not technically how gods work, but point taken
                                • cold iron is effective because it hasn't been worked
                                  • Then why do wrought and cast iron work?
                                • iron is symbolic of Earth Essence and stasis
                                  • Then why doesn't white jade work?
                                • iron is symbolic of human working and technology
                                  • Then why doesn't bronze or copper work?
                                • steel should work, the devs just don't know metallurgy
                                  • Petition to add remedial metallurgy courses for the devs as a stretch goal to the next Kickstarter.
                                  • Also, something about the interesting setup where people use substandard iron weapons in case they have to be used against fae, etc etc.
                                • fae are just like that, it's nonsense because they're fae
                                  • I personally dislike this argument but I guess it is definitionally hard to argue against
                                It is not my understanding that this thread is an attack on people who don't care about the difference between iron and steel, or even an argument that steel should work. It's wondering if there's an in-universe explanation.

                                Personally, I favor the diplomatic explanation, or maybe the sorcerous one. Making iron dangerous to Wyld natives seems like a suitable Solar 3 working.

                                EDIT: A couple more explanations I missed: Isator's suggestion that it has to do with a history of charms against fair folk, and Cryo-Seraph's suggestion that there were a group of banes, each symbolically tied to the elements, that were effective, but that only iron remains. For some reason this seems... more compelling to me than the idea that only iron is symbolically effective?
                                Thank you very much for summing this up!

                                I think my personal favorite has been the pair solar workings adding in iron and then subtracting steel (or changing the definition of steel such that it doesn't count), but a fair few have been compelling for one reason or another. The people who are actually willing to discuss the topic in good faith have provided some interesting ideas.

                                I don't think I'll be commenting on this topic henceforth though. We had some good discussion here but, the constant barrage of people just posting to thread crap is past my point of tolerance.


                                Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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