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Wondering About Lunar Eugenics (2E)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Now, Burgeoning Wyld Infliction is an Essence 4 Charm. It allows the Lunar to give *specific* Wyld-mutations to targets. Now, THIS level it requires a) The Lunar take said mortal into at least the Bordermarches...
    No, it can be used anywhere. Burgeoning Wyld Infliction does not actually have the Wyld keyword. Indeed, the only "Wyld Charm" that does is Eternal Wyld Gift.

    Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    which didn't really exist, as the layer before hitting Deep Wyld was vastly thinner in the First Age, and b) For the mortal to spend either Bonus Points or experience as a Training effect if they want the Mutations to stick...
    Who exactly is tracking the experience points of all these anonymous non-player characters? That's included for players to accept benefitial mutations for their characters. For nonplayer characters enpermanance is a matter of storyteller's fiate .

    Can some pc lunars successfully endow their followers with life-extention treatments? Well, the story will have to play some time-skips for its benefits to have noticable effect, but in any case, why not? Roleplay through convincing a cult to accept it as a ritual blessing or some such.

    Might some npc Lunar have already so endowed a cult of loyal followers somewhere? If there is a story to tell, then it may happen, just not often enough to warp the setting.
    Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    but once the Lunar hits Essence 6 and acquires the Burgeoning Wyld Infliction upgrade, Eternal Wyld Gift, mutations granted won't even cost the subject Bonus/Experience points anymore to make the mutations permanent.
    Well, the upgrade is a first age charm that may not have survived the breaking of the lunar castes. If it did, its more notable use would be that, in the wyld, the elder could permanantly inflict any mutation on anyone .
    Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Taking it to the Eternal Wyld Gift-level is simply a logistical benefit. If the mortal subjects don't have to pay experience for the Longevity, you can grant it to more of them than you otherwise could. (Although I find it difficult to imagine many mortals wouldn't be willing to make whatever effort those experience points represent, given the obvious benefit.)
    Less, I'd suggest. It doubles the willpower cost. If mortals were willing to follow a lunar elder into the wyld, they wouldn't have resisted the stress of the shaping anyway.
    Last edited by Greyman; 07-12-2018, 10:00 PM.


    • #17
      Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
      Since the Empress disappeared, the Wyld Hunt is in the crapper.
      But you're talking about something that only really seems like it would have an impact if it managed to be ongoing for centuries.

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      With a nearby patch of Wyld-taint, it's possible for an Essence 4 Lunar to literally TELEPORT a Magnitude 3 group up to 1,000 miles in any direction. (Mist-Walking Prana says absolutely nothing about needing to end one's travel in the Wyld.)
      That feels like a writing oversight, if it's not a matter of holding something too much to exact wording.

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      2) From a Looking-at-the-Loom perspective, the East and West are both rife with tribes of Wyld Barbarians. How do you pick out one cluster of Lunar-blessed mutants from fourteen clusters of barbarian tribes who have the infuriating-from-a-Sidereal-logistical-perspective penchant for power-questing for matching Mutations? If the Bloody Talons barbarian tribe sends all its young men to power-quest for the Claws mutation, while murdering off those who fail and get mutated in undesirable do they look all that different in the Loom from a group of the same size with the same percentage of people tainted with the same AMOUNT of Wyld-taint?
      There are already a lot of hypotheticals here, so all I can really say is that it's not unreasonable to assume that examination can discern a difference between Claws and Longevity, apart from the obvious. If I'm reading you correctly here, in suggesting that magical observance can only tell whether or not one has a mutation, and not any of the details.

      Mind, I would assume that for somebody with sufficient information and means to analyse it, it would be possible to tell the difference between a population that has mutations as a result of sending people into the Wyld at random and culling those who don't get anything, and one that is being systematically granted them by a single benefactor.

      It doesn't really even need to be as sophisticated as the kind of analysis that can predict everything about your life based on your Facebook likes; those both sound like very different societies, and your argument here seems to rely on the idea that Sidereals only ever get a highly distorted and selective picture of things. Like, they can tell that a society consists entirely of mutated people, but they don't know what the mutations are, or any of the details about how the society functions?

      Besides, in the prior Editions, there's an Essence 1, Investigation 1 Charm that lets Sidereals acquire any basic information instantly. Even if a Lunar might have had magic to be concealed from that somewhat, it's not exactly difficult to find out where a group's mutations came from.

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      The Sidereals and DBs have done nothing about the Rutting Pens. They've done nothing about Luthe.
      But those things don't have the impact that you're suggesting would massively transform Creation; the Rutting Pens are making line-backers with skin conditions, and Sunken Luthe is quite thoroughly isolated. They don't seem to quite warrant the response that your suggestion of systematically creating a populace of long-lived thaumaturges trained in whatever Art allowed for all of that Essence machinery stuff.

      Halta is... a bit too messy to break down.

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      I'd think a quiet takeover of a small duchy in the Hundred Kingdoms would be nearly invisible.
      If it's invisible, then it's not doing anything, so who cares?

      You can't have it both ways; you can't say "this thing would massively transform all of Creation" and "this thing could easily be contained and go unnoticed forever" at the same time in the same place.

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      a Sidereal would be hard-pressed to even know the latest regime-change in the Hundred Kingdoms has jack-all to do with a Lunar
      Probably, but there's also the matter of how the business of Sidereals involves keeping abreast of the world's affairs.

      Not that they're doing it alone; they're functionaries in the Celestial Bureaucracy. Among their duties are being the people that get sent in to investigate when somebody else is processing intelligence on the situation, and finds that something doesn't quite add up.

      Now, to be fair, Yu-Shan is supposed to have deficiencies in that regard, but that all ultimately rolls back to the question of "if you're doing something that never gets noticed, is it a thing worth doing at all?"

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      If the Lunar in question was smart enough to get amorous with sufficient disenfranchised Elementals and Terrestrial Gods to litter his new land with God-bloods
      That also seems like it would draw a lot of attention.

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      The abundant God-bloods would further be additional camo for the long-lived citizenry.
      And that seems as though it would raise further questions. Are the existence of some God-blooded supposed to make an observer assume that everybody is? How exactly are a large number of God-blooded supposed to act as camouflage?

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      (Mist-Walking Prana is arguably the most powerful transportation-related Charm in the game)
      If Second Edition had ever gotten around to giving Lunars extensive errata, I feel as though those Charms should have been significantly overhauled. That Edition still had the principle established in the core that large-scale, long range, easy teleportation is not really appropriate to the game's system or setting. I find it telling that the fiction never really acted as though it was something that Lunars had.

      Originally posted by Wyldwraith
      increased lifespan just seems to open up a lot of opportunities that are mainly gated away from mortals by lengthy learning times.
      I feel as though the problem with lengthy learning times is the overall difficulty of maintaining that level of commitment and discipline for a sustained period, rather than people being highly selective with how much time they have before they die. It's probably unlikely that all of the people with normal lifespans who aren't learning thaumaturgy and going into ascetic rituals lasting half a decade are exactly living every day to the fullest.

      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.


      • #18
        What the East being controlled by the Gold Faction has *everything* to do with the East being much more Lunar-friendly from a Sidereal PoV, even without the Gold Faction Sidereals being themselves Lunar-friendly (although I imagine that the small "Silver Faction" are hiding out among the Golds, if not simply Gold-ish in addition to being Silver. Hiding pro-Lunar leanings would certainly be easier amongst the Gold than the Bronze Faction, after all.).

        1) The Gold Faction doesn't really have much pull with the Realm and Wyld Hunt. The Bronze-Gold acrimony means Chejop Kejak and Anys Syn aren't signing off on Venerer/Ossiary Resplendent Destinies for Golds who SAY they want to go Lunar-hunting in the Threshold, but Kejak/Syn interpret the request for Wyld Hunt assets to mean "Would like to lead a band of your precariously overstretched Shikari out into the Threshold and either get them killed, or at least make them unavailable for Solar-hunting whilst on a wild Lunar-chase that will inevitably end at the Bordermarch edge of the Middlemarches...with no dead Lunar.

        Kejak had the Wyld Hunt listed as an asset of the Bureau precisely to restrict Ayesha Uru from accessing its movements and hampering it. That doesn't (to me) imply a lot of cross-Faction use of Bronze ties. Further, things have grown SO acrimonious between the Bronze and Gold in the East, that Ahn-Aru recently murdered a Gold Sidereal....without a fall-guy to pin the death on. That's why Sad Ivory's Bronze Faction elders decided to cut the blood trail leading from Ahn-Aru back to them by sending her and two rookies to set up a poorly-conceived ambush for LILITH which resulted in Jorst's destruction, the death of the rookies, and Ahn-Aru barely escaping Lilith whilst near death. They didn't even warn Sad Ivory she'd been sent after a First Age monster, who is arguably the single most powerful Lunar still alive.

        2) The Gold's control of the Sub-Convention on Essence wielders means Ayesha Uru isn't running to the former lover she hasn't spoken to ONCE outside of a official work-necessity context since initiating into Celestial Circle Sorcery with reports on Lunars using Essence in the Threshold. Why would she? The harder the Bronze has to leg-work to hunt down Lunars creeping back into the Threshold, the less manpower and resources they have to go after newly Exalted Solars. Every time the Bronze isn't apprised of a Lunar detected in the Threshold promptly, the probability the situation involving the Lunar will turn into something the Bronze must not ignore to keep their Realm-assets secure increases. The Gold Faction needs zero love for the Lunars to want to use them to further destabilize the Realm they want their pet Solars to take over.

        3) The Gold is doing a lot better of late. Where once the appointment of a Directional Convention head would've been a gimme on Kejak's part, now the exact quote was "It has been everything Chejop Kejak could do simply to keep the Convention of Air chair open." That statement says a HUGE amount about how far Bronze pull has fallen. It's one thing to not have enough pull to get a Bronze seated in the Northern Convention using Bronze resources alone. It's quite another for Chejop Kejak and Syn to not even be able to cut a deal with Nazri's Independents to get it done. Not being able to seat a Bronze in the Direction containing the Bull of the North's Circle is tantamount to Complete Mission Statement Failure for the Bronze. It also makes sense. Why would Heaven want to antagonize the Anticipated Heir-Apparent of the Bureau of Destiny for a man who is going to be dead in what is (from Yu-Shan's PoV) an eyeblink. MoEP: Sidereals was pretty explicit that Ayesha Uru is expected to dominate the Bureau of Destiny once ole Kejak is dead.

        4) #3 has really ratcheted up the hostilities between the Gold and Bronze. Things have moved beyond trying to get your other-Faction rivals audited or their career destroyed, and into conspiracies to commit outright murder. The Bronze doesn't want to let go, but some of their strongest Heavenly allies are reconsidering their positions. Ryzala, who conspired with Kejak and his Bronze Sidereals to have Ryzala's predecessor and many other pro-Solar deities framed as Yozi-worshippers, will no longer even allow violent action to be taken against a Solar by Bronze Faction members whilst that Solar remains in Yu-Shan according to the CoCD. She's considering jumping ship from the Bronze *entirely* in the wake of the Bull's success against the Tepet legions. Losing the implicit support of the Goddess who controls who gets audited, and pretty much the verdicts of most of Yu-Shan's censors is...there aren't words for how bad that is for the Bronze Faction. Meanwhile, you've got Mars second-in-command, Hu Dai Ling preparing to kick-start the Realm Civil War, believing getting it over with will be in the Realm's best interests.

        Heaven is a tire fire right now, and while it doesn't explicitly SAY so, I have to believe that it's a negative situation that's gaining momentum. If the biggest divine supporters of the Bronze are wavering in the face of the combo-reality of Kejak's time almost being up and the return of the Solars, the Bronze aren't simply losing the benefits of those deities enthusiastic support. They're also having to pour more time and attention down the drain just to stiffen the *remaining* level of support those gods and goddesses are offering. Meanwhile, Ayesha Uru's star is ascending, and more deities are quietly and not-so-quietly hopping aboard. For Luna's sake...*Nara-O* has abandoned Chejop's Faction for the Gold.

        Meanwhile, every single erg of effort the Bronze and the Gold spend against each other is one less erg of effort they're spending against the Lunars. If the Bronze is having trouble mounting Wyld Hunts in the Threshold versus Solars, how much MORE trouble are they having mounting Wyld Hunts against what they see as "the lesser threat."

        Finally, I have to believe the Gold isn't inherently antagonistic to the Lunars since they have this half-assed idea of turning all the Lunars back into their First Age selves. The Cult of the Illuminated even trains some Lunars to that effect. One of their Kether Rock graduates has a Lunar whose all deluded into thinking she should be a First Age lapdog....and the Cult trained her to be his bodyguard. There's an entire section in the Cult book about how they handle Lunars...and there isn't any mention of killing them unless they're stopping the Cult from recruiting a Solar.

        Edit: The invisibility aspect of my argument wasn't about the hypothetical kingdom in the Hundred Kingdoms *staying* unnoticeable. It was about the Lunar being able to keep the changing situation from Sidereal notice until it's beyond the easily nipped in the bud with 1 Sidereal and 1 sworn-brotherhood of DBs phase. I apologize for not being clearer about my position there. Lunars quietly working on something until the society hits critical mass that requires bringing in a Realm legion to squash is so status-quo for them, I took it as going without saying. My bad there
        Last edited by Wyldwraith; 07-13-2018, 06:35 PM.


        • #19
          Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
          Lastly, use of Burgeoning Wyld Infliction/Eternal Wyld Gift to customize one's Beastfolk in innumerable ways...Well, it's a potent argument for the transhuman potential of Lunar societies.

          So, thoughts?
          Out of curiosity, didn't Burgeoning Wyld Infliction require the Lunar to commit the 5 points of Essence to the subject to keep the Charm activated, meaning that the Lunar was limited in how many Wyld Mutations they could hand out? Of course, Eternal Wyld Gift broke the setting over it's knee, but that's pretty much par for the course when looking at Charms in Lords of Creation, none of which were balanced terribly well, not even the Dragon Blooded Charms, all things considered.

          Nine times out of time, if you're looking through Dreams of the First Age and you say, "Wait, doesn't this break the setting...?" or, "This doesn't make sense and seems kind bad," the answer is probably yeah, yeah it does and yeah it is.
          Last edited by AnubisXy; 07-13-2018, 09:46 PM.


          • #20
            I feel as though part of this subject plays off of my sensibility about crafting. Specifically, the idea that, going by the system, it's not exactly difficult for a basic crafting Solar to just spend all of their time manufacturing some mundane but socially or martially useful tool, on an almost industrial scale, but it's not really dramatically satisfying and seems like an overall banal and tedious thing to occupy a Solar's time with, so I kind of assume that hardly any Solar would bother to do so.

            Imbuing people with certain useful supernatural traits is a few steps above that, but the matter of scale and investment that it requires still seems a bit dull. It's really how I assess a lot of these things that involve scaling up applications of Exalted powers, or assuming characters that are systematically implementing them in a localized and repetitive manner. It just doesn't really seem to be a scale at which they were intended to operate, and adding riders and caveats to specify limits feels as though it would just add a layer of tedium, so I'm not going to hold that against the writers. I'm generally going to assume that the scale and frequency of these things being used exists mostly within the confines of dramatically significant scenes, and especially with the idea that if implementing them at the upper ends of what is technically possible would greatly transform the setting, that those with the power just can't or won't.

            So for one thing, in service to that, the argument that forces in opposition to Lunars would have the means to curtail those plans can both serve as a way of counteracting them within the logic of the setting, and arguments against those are kind of irrelevant, because... we have the setting, and it isn't awash with people that have been granted significantly enhanced lifespans that they occupied with mastering thaumaturgy. So if somebody is really hung up on the idea that such a thing could happen, they kind of have to grant that it hasn't.

            I mean, unless they want to rewrite large sections of the setting to suit the purposes of their own games. Which they absolutely should be encouraged and assisted in doing...

            Goddammit, it happened again.

            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.


            • #21
              Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
              I was recently re-reading MoEP: Lunars, the CoCD: Wyld, and Lords of Creation, and noticed something. Longevity is a Mutation Pox, which can be doubled-down on (for quadruple total lifespan, total 480-510 years, the range dependent on Stamina) by making it into a Blight. It recommends Storytellers require a linked Deficiency (recommending the Diet or the require +25% more food Deficiencies either/or) when dealing with doubled-up Longevity...but this seems like an INCREDIBLY small price to pay for a lifespan that will exceed that of many Dragonblooded.

              Further, Lords of Creation indicated it was a Resources 3 expenditure for the Longevity Pox, and an additional Resources 5 expense to bump Longevity to Blight-level. Something only done for 1 in 10,000 mortals, and of those only the most favored and valuable of Deliberative retainers.

              Now, Burgeoning Wyld Infliction is an Essence 4 Charm. It allows the Lunar to give *specific* Wyld-mutations to targets. Now, THIS level it requires a) The Lunar take said mortal into at least the Bordermarches...which didn't really exist, as the layer before hitting Deep Wyld was vastly thinner in the First Age, and b) For the mortal to spend either Bonus Points or experience as a Training effect if they want the Mutations to stick...but once the Lunar hits Essence 6 and acquires the Burgeoning Wyld Infliction upgrade, Eternal Wyld Gift, mutations granted won't even cost the subject Bonus/Experience points anymore to make the mutations permanent.

     in the name of Gaia did Lunars like Tammuz, Ingosh Silverclaws, and Silver Python (on the sane/positive side), and Ma-ha-suchi (on the specific Super-Beastmen-of-Destruction side) let this one slip past them? Using the same Charm, granting Awakened Essence becomes trivial (not to say Lunars don't have two OTHER Charm-based means of enlightening mortals speedily). Wouldn't a society of people with the Longevity Blight (which obviated the need to awaken their Essence with another Blight they may not have a high enough permanent willpower to allow them to remain Creation-viable, since people who are going to live nearly 500 years have plenty of time to put in the five years to gain enlightenment slowly and safely) be pretty much the PERFECT base-stock from which to start a society?

              Longevity mutations don't leave a visible mark. You can also take this one step further for any of your Heroic mortals who hit Willpower 8 (vanishingly rare, but the option is there) and give them the Regeneration Blight...yet another Mutation without visible sign. Or split your society into social sub-strata (trying to avoid use of the word caste casually), and give say, your warriors Regeneration and your thinkers Longevity. With the added advantage of creating social impetus to strengthen one's Willpower/Virtues, in order to be able to ascend to About As Good As It Gets For a Mortal In Creation, and possess BOTH the lifespan of a Dragon Blooded and a constitution so strong only a TRULY determined effort by a mortal, or a supernatural threat is likely to cut that long life short.

              Dangling virtual immortality before the wealthy would also seem to be a lever of social influence too powerful to pass up. Guild Hiearchs spend mountains of silver and jade to prolong their time outside the Underworld with anagathics like age-staving cordial, for a measly +25% increase in lifespan. The Yozis snatch up who knows how many souls with promises of immortality. How could social engineers somehow not even HAVE a stance on being able to create a Dragon Blooded lifespan in a mortal with a snap of their fingers and a few motes?

              I really don't believe I'm overstating the advantages to be gained by increasing the lifespan of one's followers on a societal scale. Those extra centuries give humans time to master thaumaturgical disciplines, more than one Terrestrial Martial Art, or become a truly exceptional Terrestrial Circle Sorcerer. Lack of lifespan is cited as the CHIEF reason as to why truly accomplished mortal sorcerers are so rare in Creation. When it takes you 4-8 years to master a SINGLE spell, AFTER the years spent devoted to awakening one's essence AND THEN becoming initiated into Sorcery in the first place, of course the accomplished sorcerers are going to be wizened old wizards or deeply-wrinkled witches. Even simply granting Longevity at the Pox-level to all the worthies of a society would have PROFOUND benefits. 100 years +20 years per point of Stamina, with middle-age not ensuing until *80*, and the character not becoming elderly until *120*!

              I truly believe the chief reason mortal essence-users were much more common in the First Age had nothing to do with access, and everything to do with lifespan. Everyone but the very poor could scrimp and save enough for the Resources 2 purchase of Pox-level life-extension treatments, and as a result of being consciously aware of their increased expected lifespan, often chose to make decisions they might not have with a shorter life. (Spending five years of a 60-80 lifespan is weighty. Five years of a 160+ year lifespan? Not so much.)

              More mortal essence users directly correlates to increased society-level benefits through more powerful/more efficient thaumaturgy. Look at what wide-scale use of thaumaturgy has done for Paragon, as an example of what I'm talking about. The conditions (however dubiously achieved) the Perfect has created have lead to more people becoming thaumaturges, and the benefits to Paragon are PROFOUND.

              Even simply "ennobling the noteworthy" of a society, if the Lunar didn't want to get so ambitious, has potential benefits that merit very serious consideration.

              All of this would be moot, given the attendant stigma among all civilized peoples upon those perceived to be Wyld-tainted...except for the fact Longevity doesn't leave any discernible marks like claws or bizarre hair/eye colors. Even members of a society blessed with such who subsequently moved beyond the Lunar's influence aren't really at risk in other places if people notice they're only aging half as fast as they should. Being the descendant of a God-Blood could easily explain away such, and particularly in the East and West such people are pretty common.

              I also wonder if it would be possible to take increased Longevity to the absurd, and combine a Wyld-mutation-induced Longevity Blight, with the non-Mutation-based Bio-Thaumaturgic Procedure which grants in effect the same thing.

              Lastly, use of Burgeoning Wyld Infliction/Eternal Wyld Gift to customize one's Beastfolk in innumerable ways...Well, it's a potent argument for the transhuman potential of Lunar societies.

              So, thoughts?
              I can do you one better: Lands of Creation page 131.
              The Abomination "Immortal Flesh"
              A mutation which gives resurrective immortality to anyone other than a non-chimera exalt. It even resets you to the prime of your youth when you die of old age.
              Admittedly, it takes between five years and one month depending on your stamina, to fully resurrect.

              Also, it only works if your body wasn't entirely burnt away or melted in acid or some shit, and you weren't slain with a spirit killer.
              Last edited by PlotVitalNPC; 07-14-2018, 02:09 AM.


              • #22
                Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                Out of curiosity, didn't Burgeoning Wyld Infliction require the Lunar to commit the 5 points of Essence to the subject to keep the Charm activated, meaning that the Lunar was limited in how many Wyld Mutations they could hand out?
                Burgeoning Wyld Inflictionhad a duration of (Lunar's Essence) days, and a cost of 5 motes (and one will power). But the charm doesn't need to stay committed once the mutations become permanent. So it is a question of : When do the mutations become permenant?


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Greyman View Post
                  Burgeoning Wyld Inflictionhad a duration of (Lunar's Essence) days, and a cost of 5 motes (and one will power). But the charm doesn't need to stay committed once the mutations become permanent. So it is a question of : When do the mutations become permenant?
                  Treat it like a training effect, and have the person go into experience debt if he wants to keep the mutation (which he will)


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                    Treat it like a training effect, and have the person go into experience debt if he wants to keep the mutation (which he will)
                    I meant: how long should a storyteller require the charm to be active before empermanence become a choice. Immediately, or the full duration. (The later means it takes longer the more powerful the exalt, but that does also mean more mutations can be successfully endowed too.)
                    Last edited by Greyman; 07-14-2018, 08:11 AM.


                    • #25
                      Well, presumably Essence days.

                      I play...
                      Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                      Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.


                      • #26
                        Burgeoning Wyld Infliction doesn't require an Essence commitment. 5m, 1wp...and yeah, says the Lunar has no power to make the Mutations permanent, that's up to the target spending XP. So yeah, basically Training Effect it.

                        As for the argument of systematic life-extension being against setting, I'd contest that. First, there are numerous means canonically floating about the setting to lengthen lifespan. Some rarer than others, but Age Staving Cordial is essentially Alchemy + Alchemist Being Based in the East. It doesn't get simpler than that. Add in an alchemist with awakened essence, production goes up. Make that Alchemist a Solar with Celestial Refinement Techniques and you have a Guild-threatening market-cornering of the substance in the making. With an Occult 3, Essence 1 Charm.

                        The other thing is, the setting might be "frozen" canonically at RY 768, but everything we read indicates Creation is wildly in flux. You've got major, MAJOR Thousand Streams projects in 3 of 4 corners of the world, and three of the largest are mind-boggling impacts on Creation's economy, international diplomacy etc etc. Chiaroscuro, Haslanti League and Halta are all essentially massive success stories of Lunars tinkering in highly visible ways with mortal societies. Again, it comes back to Paragon for me as the canonical example of a major effort to de-gate mortals from access to the supernatural en masse. What the Perfect can do as a human being who lucked into a major Artifact, any sufficiently determined Celestial Exalt could accomplish.

                        OK, disclaimer, I freely admit my argument about Wyld Barbarian tribes making it harder for Sidereals to determine what's going on with a lot of humans suddenly mutating WAS a little disingenuous. Of course a reading of the Loom could tell the difference between guys with Claws-Pox, and communities whose individuals threads are actually *twice as long.* I kind of felt if the Lunar doing the mutating stayed rigged for Silent Threshold Running w/ Flickering Star Infusion + Evading the Spider's Eye that, in this day of a drawn down Wyld Hunt, mobilizing Realm assets to go squash a new and better Paragon might not be the highest priority.

                        Why? Tammuz pushed the Realm to an absolutely ridiculous extent, and they let it go with him faking dead. Given his new gentrified horse-nomads stayed so incredibly cohesive, I'm all but positive the Sidereals and the Empress knew he was still there. They simply decided that the show of force proving to have been enough to cause him to choose taking a hand only from the shadows was sufficient for their purposes. Chiaroscuro kicked in its tribute, and the Realm played ball...regardless of what people like Peleps Deled wanted to see happen in their perfect world.

                        So, maybe the question isn't COULD such a Mutation-benefiting community on the rise be wiped out by the Sidereals/Realm. It's instead: Would they even bother, if the Lunar's visible semi-mortal figurehead pulled a Tammuz, welcomed a Realm garrison, and kicked in tribute? Sure, nobody's fooled that a Lunar's behind it all..perhaps, but if the community isn't selling out to Lookshy, what would make them a priority for the torch when the Realm can't find enough Shikari to hunt free Solars, let alone Cult-Solars, let alone the Lunars themselves?

                        I've always perceived the East as the Anathema Playground. 1) You've got Nexus, Great Forks and Halta all as places Lunars and Solars can walk openly, IF they don't kick up a fuss and start flashing totemic anima banners. 2) The Bronze Faction's miscalculation in using the East as the Gold-dumping ground means that almost on general principle, anytime Bronze assets try to go to work in the East on anything that isn't a Creature of Darkness, the Gold sabotages them just because. 3) The Bull's *more* than a Circle of *organized* Solars with major infrastructure build-up is just sucking Bronze attention northward. Had the Bull finished off Linowan and stayed to consolidate Eastern gains, that might not be true, but he withdrew for reasons that are completely inexplicable in my eyes. The entire Eastern campaign essentially was for nothing.