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Wondering About Lunar Eugenics (2E)

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  • Aquillion
    replied
    Although some of this is on 2e making it too easy for players to scale their powers up, it's worth pointing out that there are lots of factors limiting the Lunar ability to build infrastructure. Mortals can't really live in the bordermarches for extended periods of time, so all these long-lived mortals are going to be settling down in Creation. And Sidereals (or even just DBs) are going to notice a bunch of mortals who are receiving obvious, dramatic life-changing gifts in large numbers from someone who might be Anathema. Striking at the edges of Creation is costly and annoying for them, but they'd totally do it if they felt a Lunar had invested a large amount into building up something that might threaten them.

    So basically, for most Lunars your plan is an excellent way to waste a large amount of time, energy, and resources on building up a settlement of mildly-empowered mortals that will eventually get stomped by the Wyld Hunt. (The Lunar will probably be able to escape, but they can't easily bring their mortals with them or protect them at the same time, not over an extended period of time against aggressive hunters who know the general contours and weaknesses of Lunar power and who are determined to crush anything that could become a Lunar power-center in the future.)

    That isn't to say a Lunar couldn't have pulled it off somewhere (eg. by finding a place where the DBs can't easily project power), but there's a reason this doesn't happen all over the place. If you're going to do something that is likely to call the Wyld Hunt down on your head while also investing your time and energy in fragile infrastructure that will be hard to hide and which the Wyld Hunt can easily smash to bits, there are probably better options than this anyway.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

    Second Edition was not so permissive.
    Second Edition would ascribe it to a spell or something, which would kind of suck but was still there.

    Workings are really just a way of systemizing things that the game has always said that sorcerers can do (in a more accommodating manner than needing to buy a spell for it, and a more clear manner than it just being hand waved).

    Especially with the Dragon Blooded; sorcery has always been cited among the things that let certain Dragon Blooded live longer.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    In response,
    Taking it to the Eternal Wyld Gift-level is simply a logistical benefit. If the mortal subjects don't have to pay experience for the Longevity, you can grant it to more of them than you otherwise could. (Although I find it difficult to imagine many mortals wouldn't be willing to make whatever effort those experience points represent, given the obvious benefit.)
    Yes, but that's very abuseable. "Become my slave if you want to live over a century" is going to attract some people, but others will hate the Lunar for not giving it out for free.
    I mean, just imagine; you're an insane decadent god-beast with the power of life and death. You have the (mentally exhausting) power to grant a small number of people a long lifespan. Your family and friends will come first. Then people you think are deserving.
    But how long does it take before you offer it for huge amounts of money? Or (and I hesitate to bring it up, but we know it'd happen) offer it to hot men/women with serious illnesses if they join your harem?

    A few thousand people with such lifespans in a population of 35-50,000 could become a class of enlightened thaumaturges. Paragon is my recurring example, because it's the closest in-canon example I can draw of a powerful being whose chosen to actively create the environment and civic inducements which has lead to wide-scale societal use of thaumaturgy in city-level public works projects. Except, the vast majority of the Perfect's citizen-thaumaturges don't have awakened essence. A similar percentage of people choosing to become thaumaturges, in a similar sized population who WERE enlightened would be an order of magnitude more potent.
    Sure, but this isn't really surprising; 2nd ed Dreams of the First Age seemed to be chock full of enlightened mortals.

    It just seems to me like that's the sort of thing at least some of the Winding Path Lunars would have jumped all over. All of which says very little about the elephant in the room. Longer lifespans among the sorcerously-inclined would make a huge difference in Creation. If a single Lunar did nothing but wander Creation and give a Longevity-Pox to already-existing mortal sorcerers, it would change Creation ENORMOUSLY.
    Yeah, but most sorcerers are dodgy dudes that live in evil towers. Everyone knows that.
    You'd be better off granting it to righteous rulers, or great scholars, or something like that.


    It may be worth pointing out at this point that I realised I could do this with my Lunar, as he had Burgeoning Wyld Infliction (and a combo of it+excellency, though that's 2wp)... and I granted a grand sum of 0 people the extended lifespan merit. I did consider giving it to my character's grandson, but the bit where the mutation often causes them horrible pain as they mutate turned me off. I didn't imagine his Night father and Changing Moon Lunar would be happy if I made their baby scream in hideous pain and claimed he'd benefit in, like, 50 years.

    The thing is, I knew I could spend all my wp to benefit people in 50 years... but I needed WP now for stuff (and was constantly out of WP) and didn't want to constantly exhaust myself helping others. (You mention 2-3 pt stunts, but could you really do that several times a day for the exact same process?)
    Which is pretty selfish (and not the most selfish thing he did), but I thought, hey, I can do when I've got a free year with no pressing disasters... that never happened. (And then he lost his memory because he mutated too much).

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    I kind of assume that most sorcerers have done some stuff to extend their lifespan to a degree anyway, and that Creation is wild and weird enough that such people kind of disappear into it.

    Are these sorcerers distantly patronised by a Lunar any better at defying the status quo of the reigning Terrestrial Exalted, with their Sidereal backers?
    You may be thinking of Third Edition, where mortal sorcerers can change themselves with workings.

    Second Edition was not so permissive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Longer lifespans among the sorcerously-inclined would make a huge difference in Creation. If a single Lunar did nothing but wander Creation and give a Longevity-Pox to already-existing mortal sorcerers, it would change Creation ENORMOUSLY.
    I kind of assume that most sorcerers have done some stuff to extend their lifespan to a degree anyway, and that Creation is wild and weird enough that such people kind of disappear into it.

    Are these sorcerers distantly patronised by a Lunar any better at defying the status quo of the reigning Terrestrial Exalted, with their Sidereal backers?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wyldwraith
    replied
    In response,
    Taking it to the Eternal Wyld Gift-level is simply a logistical benefit. If the mortal subjects don't have to pay experience for the Longevity, you can grant it to more of them than you otherwise could. (Although I find it difficult to imagine many mortals wouldn't be willing to make whatever effort those experience points represent, given the obvious benefit.)

    The costs-a-willpower-point-to-use argument is fairly compelling, but conversely the bestowing of mighty blessings like very long life is EXACTLY the sort of thing a Lunar interested in raising his Cult Background Rating would do. Mortals worship small gods who make rocks and stumps disappear from their fields, or boost their fish-catching, and such Gods are often regional influences. Hitting a level 2 Cult of hundreds wouldn't take long, if the Lunar was so inclined, so he/she could do two people a day without burnout...and likely three, if he/she turned granting the Longevity into an exceptionally flashy, interesting ritual (a two or three-die stunt, and choose regaining a temporary willpower.) Were I the Storyteller in question, so long as my player stayed reasonably descriptive and fairly showman-like in his descriptions, I'd give some latitude on ritual-stunts done for that purpose.

    A few thousand people with such lifespans in a population of 35-50,000 could become a class of enlightened thaumaturges. Paragon is my recurring example, because it's the closest in-canon example I can draw of a powerful being whose chosen to actively create the environment and civic inducements which has lead to wide-scale societal use of thaumaturgy in city-level public works projects. Except, the vast majority of the Perfect's citizen-thaumaturges don't have awakened essence. A similar percentage of people choosing to become thaumaturges, in a similar sized population who WERE enlightened would be an order of magnitude more potent.

    It just seems to me like that's the sort of thing at least some of the Winding Path Lunars would have jumped all over. All of which says very little about the elephant in the room. Longer lifespans among the sorcerously-inclined would make a huge difference in Creation. If a single Lunar did nothing but wander Creation and give a Longevity-Pox to already-existing mortal sorcerers, it would change Creation ENORMOUSLY.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    I imagine so. It would potentially be a form of granting immortality though, and thus subject to the same restrictions.

    Although I guess "needs to be periodically re-applied" counts as a "catch" in and of itself.

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  • Accelerator
    replied
    Can sorcerous workings restore youth, and reverse aging?

    Cause I can see the same thing happening..

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    So...how in the name of Gaia did Lunars like Tammuz, Ingosh Silverclaws, and Silver Python (on the sane/positive side), and Ma-ha-suchi (on the specific Super-Beastmen-of-Destruction side) let this one slip past them?
    Well first, they probably didn't have the Essence 6 version of that charm.

    Secondly, it costs a wp. So you're probably going to do less than one a day, or you'll burn yourself out (mentally).
    So, sure, in a year you might give a couple of hundred people extended lifespan. In 10 years, a couple of thousand. In 100 years, a couple of ten thousand.

    That's not actually very many people in a world of billions.


    And finally... so some Lunars could grant extended lifespan to people.
    Well... maybe they did? Maybe the Lunar elders didn't let that slip past them?
    Maybe that's why the First Age was great, because those who pleased a Lunar could have their lives extended? Yet that also gives them a lot of power over people... do what I say if you want to live for 150 years. Do whatever I want, or you won't get this blessing.

    That's the sort of thing that might make people resent the Lunars.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Yeah, this is a symptom of the "Lunars were kinda shoehorned in without anyone really thinking about the consequences" problem 2e had.

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  • Meianno Yuurei
    replied
    I think I'm glad for 3e.

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