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  • #16
    Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
    It's not really a mechanics sense of "guns make Exalts irrelevant", so much as themes associated with the Gun as a Gun.
    My previous reply was probably predicated on that phenomenon that Ghosthead has pointed out sometimes, where I have a tendency to demand extremely exacting terminology that accounts for all layers and nuances. So... just gonna shove that all off to the side.

    Mind, the subject as it pertains to firewands does have me wondering: do we ever get references to firewands being employed in ranked formations in the manner of the popular image of musketry?

    I sometimes feel as though, given the manner in which they're referred to (rare, specialized, proprietary weapons), that they're more suited for something like a pike-and-shot formation.

    I'm also suddenly thinking about some implications inherent to the premise that Solars could derive assault rifles from hand cannons in the first place, re: "Craftsman Needs No Tools could technically manufacture things that nobody in Creation has anything close to the tools to make, but should we necessarily assume that any Solars have the creative mindset", and... that's a whole other rabbit hole that should be left alone for the time being.

    Mind, I'm the person who has, for a decent length of time, been of the perspective that there's something kind of erroneous in the idea that Craft Charms make a Solar any... let's say smarter about crafting, even though it often seems to be a base assumption for most people.


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

      My previous reply was probably predicated on that phenomenon that Ghosthead has pointed out sometimes, where I have a tendency to demand extremely exacting terminology that accounts for all layers and nuances. So... just gonna shove that all off to the side.

      Mind, the subject as it pertains to firewands does have me wondering: do we ever get references to firewands being employed in ranked formations in the manner of the popular image of musketry?

      I sometimes feel as though, given the manner in which they're referred to (rare, specialized, proprietary weapons), that they're more suited for something like a pike-and-shot formation.

      I'm also suddenly thinking about some implications inherent to the premise that Solars could derive assault rifles from hand cannons in the first place, re: "Craftsman Needs No Tools could technically manufacture things that nobody in Creation has anything close to the tools to make, but should we necessarily assume that any Solars have the creative mindset", and... that's a whole other rabbit hole that should be left alone for the time being.

      Mind, I'm the person who has, for a decent length of time, been of the perspective that there's something kind of erroneous in the idea that Craft Charms make a Solar any... let's say smarter about crafting, even though it often seems to be a base assumption for most people.
      There's stuff about firewand formations, yeah. If I remember right they're expensive to field, but the Varangians use musket line style tactics with firewands against infantry, supported by archers. It's short range, but nothing breaks an enemy cavalry charge like a sudden wall of fire to spook or cook the horses. Mostly a defensive measure iirc.


      So I'm making God-Kicking Boot, an Exalted webcomic, now. Updates on Sundays. Full-color, mediocre but slowly improving art. It's a thing.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Lioness View Post
        It was probably a good call. I've seen enough Exalted players who basically wanted to play Syndrome and arguments about how well the modern USA would fare against Exalts to be glad that they're not regular occurrences.

        I distinctly remember a quote said by an author, that if guns were to be fielded, they would be taken, reverse engineered, and then the exalts would take guns into their hands and then develop charms for them.

        There is no tech advantage you can have over an exalted, and then expect it to stay there forever. Sooner or later, they will develop either countermeasures or copy your advantage then add in their own powers.

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        • #19
          I understand and sympathize with the reason firewands were conceived (guns and cowboys are too solidly entrenched in American identity), but I just don’t like them.

          They’re not guns, they’re flamethrowers; an entirely different weapon, with different pros and cons. For example, they’re almost always going to start fires, especially in southern towns primarily built with wood.

          If I wanted a gun, I would sooner design a whole new kind of artifact for which I or my craftsman would have to manufacture rounds, so that I could shoot actual bullets and not start fires when I didn’t mean to. Or maybe it could just shoot bullets of non-incindiery energy made from motes.

          Mortal cowboys would have to make due with the kinds of weapons earlier herders had to use; bows and slings, and whatnot.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
            They’re not guns, they’re flamethrowers; an entirely different weapon, with different pros and cons. For example, they’re almost always going to start fires, especially in southern towns primarily built with wood.
            They're really not flamethrowers either though. They're more like dragon's breath shotgun rounds. They don't have the sustained, sticky stream you can get from most flamethrowers that makes them truly dangerous.

            Basically they're a cross between a gun and a flamethrower made to fit into a fantasy setting where neither gun, nor flamethrower would be appropriate.


            Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Lioness View Post
              It was probably a good call. I've seen enough Exalted players who basically wanted to play Syndrome and arguments about how well the modern USA would fare against Exalts to be glad that they're not regular occurrences.

              I too remember those awful threads. Personally, I don't think it matters against a sufficiently capable exalt, it's really no different then a powerbow.

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              • #22
                A firewand is an example of where creation has advanced in a different direction to how earth did. They are mundane technology that we don't have because one of the core components doesn't exist.

                Firedust is weird wyld-based sand that functions similarly but not identically to gunpowder, allowing the creation of gun-like flamethrower things that wouldn't work on earth.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                  For example, they’re almost always going to start fires, especially in southern towns primarily built with wood.
                  Wouldn't Southern towns be primarily built of clay and stone? I don't think that the kind of sturdy wood that you construct buildings out of is very widely available down that way, and that those materials might be more suited to creating a cool domicile anyway.

                  In any case, I generally assume that flame weapons inflict brief hot flashes that scorch material and scald flash, but aren't sustained enough to actually cause ignition unless they hit something that is highly flammable, such as straw.

                  I mean, as far as I know, bare wood doesn't readily ignite, and starting such a fire tends to require some starting material and accelerant, and that a small, hot, concentrated flame such as I assume is generally shot will more often burn a hole straight through something like a fabric.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                  • #24
                    I remember one of the chapter pics in an ex2 book (maybe Terr Directions: South?) - an army elephant had a howdah with firewand users, keeping the enemy from swarming the elephant sides & back. Also, IIRC "cannon" type artillery are either alchemy (beam o'death) or steam based (scary hissy boiler lofting pumpkins/cannonballs with a mighty hiss)

                    Firedust is a pretty elegant solution to a can of worms. Gunpowder burns in the open, the only change is saying it will not explode even if confined, which make physics sense. It allows for cavalry with a brace of single-shot pistols and for duels at high noon, and doesn't have an easy way for an Exalted crafter to improve it into a machine gun. The downside is if fire-dragonblood are immune to flames, it becomes a iffy choice for primary weapon.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      Wouldn't Southern towns be primarily built of clay and stone? I don't think that the kind of sturdy wood that you construct buildings out of is very widely available down that way, and that those materials might be more suited to creating a cool domicile anyway.

                      In any case, I generally assume that flame weapons inflict brief hot flashes that scorch material and scald flash, but aren't sustained enough to actually cause ignition unless they hit something that is highly flammable, such as straw.

                      I mean, as far as I know, bare wood doesn't readily ignite, and starting such a fire tends to require some starting material and accelerant, and that a small, hot, concentrated flame such as I assume is generally shot will more often burn a hole straight through something like a fabric.
                      Working in the log home industry, I'll back you up here. Big thick timbers take an incredible about of effort to set alight. They generally won't burn that effectively and can be resistant to things like forest fires as the fire tends to burn itself out before it really catches the timbers.

                      That said, stick frame building that have become the most common type of building material are fairly flamable especially with the once-common sawdust insulation. See the Great Chicago Fire for what can happen when you use wood for everything. That said, buildings made from solid wood or brick would be far less susceptible to a flame-piece. Even regular wood framing styles wouldn't just go up in flames immediately without something to get them going, like the straw you mentioned.

                      As I mentioned up thread, this is the real difference between a firewand and an actual flamethrower. A real flamethrower jets out streams of highly flamable fuel that sticks to what you spray it on and keeps burning. A concentrated burst can light just about anything on fire.


                      Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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                      • #26
                        Even if it does burn hot enough to set wooden buildings on fire (one has to think an artifact weapon like Sekhem certainly does!) a firewand doesn't overpenetrate. They're good to Short range and no further, and they're narrow enough streams that they only catch one target. unless you're fighting indoors, I doubt you'll set anything major on fire by accident.

                        As to "how would Exalts fare against AK-47s?" One has to assume "pretty well". Modern humans may know more stuff than bronze age humans, but we are not better at crafting than Autochthon, nor better at war than Mars. The Exalted Host were granted the finest weapons of war with which to smite the enemies of the gods, and none of those weapons were Glorious Solar LMGs.

                        So apparently, according to the divine beings in charge of murder-toys, guns aren't *that* big a deal compared to giant robots wielding somehow even more giant swords.
                        Last edited by Amayad; 07-13-2018, 03:37 PM.

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                        • #27
                          I never really feel as though a firewand or flame piece is quite a substitute for an actual gun, because I have to imagine that its projectile does not generally penetrate deeply, and so it lacks the immediacy that being shot with a bullet does.

                          I can never really imagine a scene in which everything is calm and cordial and then somebody gets shot in the head and goes straight down. Granted, it's harder in real life for a shot in the head to be immediately fatal than it tends to be depicted as in fiction, but I'd still generally imagine that execution to take the form of the person's head being set alight.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Amayad View Post
                            Even if it does burn hot enough to set wooden buildings on fire (one has to think an artifact weapon like Sekhem certainly does!) a firewand doesn't overpenetrate. They're good to Short range and no further, and they're narrow enough streams that they only catch one target. unless you're fighting indoors, I doubt you'll set anything major on fire by accident.

                            As to "how would Exalts fare against AK-47s?" One has to assume "pretty well". Modern humans may know more stuff than bronze age humans, but we are not better at crafting than Autochthon, nor better at war than Mars. The Exalted Host were granted the finest weapons of war with which to smite the enemies of the gods, and none of those weapons were Glorious Solar LMGs.

                            So apparently, according to the divine beings in charge of murder-toys, guns aren't *that* big a deal compared to giant robots wielding somehow even more giant swords.
                            Shards put that issue to bed fairly well in allowing Exalted to dodge and parry bullets without Charms, and giving them proper mechanical standing in making them quite far from totems of instant death. In EX3, I'd similarly keep expecting tank cannons to be chaff before an Apocalypse Flare Attack. Don't shoot Asura; you'll only end up suffering more of his Wrath.

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                            • #29
                              I think firewands are fine, in terms of letting people have the visual of guns, but more magical, in a way that can't be mass-produced. Also, their short range balances them against bows.

                              But... I just don't like the visual. Never really felt right to me, since I saw the 2nd ed comic. Just a subjective thing.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                in a way that can't be mass-produced.
                                I'm pretty sure that they could be mass produced.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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