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  • #61
    I'm not saying Alchemicals can specifically cure Autochthon or that their power has no limits whatsoever.

    I'm saying it's impossible to infer the specific limitation of them not being able to cure Autochthon from the sentence stating Autochthon can't cure himself using his own power, because despite Alchemicals being created and empowered by Autochthon, whatever limits there are to their power are not exactly the same as Autochthon's limits to his personal power.

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    • #62
      So Autochthonia is one of my favorite fantasy settings ever, and I've been re-reading the Compass (it's really good you guys!), and something that is getting glossed-over in the discussions of technology is that most of Autochthonia's tech and infrastructure is not manufactured, really. Autochthonia has an industrial aesthetic and an industrial feel, but people didn't actually build any of those factories and foundries, they found them. They are naturally-occurring elements of the Autochthonian landscape. When a Sodalt taps a conduit for nutrient slurry, or a member of the Populat labors at an assembly-line, that looks like a 19th-century person working in a factory, but it isn't. People didn't build the factory, people didn't build the conduits, none of that stuff is the result of human labor.

      Autochthonians aren't actually industrial people! They're just as Bronze Age as the rest of Creation, hacking together a life from the harsh wilderness-- only, the wilderness they live in happens to have things like manufactories and access tunnels instead of jungles and marshes. That needs to be kept in mind; some stuff won't work in Creation because, well, Creation isn't the living body of the Machine-God. Similarly, "why don't Autochthonians have guns?" Well, because Autochthon doesn't grow any gun factories!

      Not to shut down conversation or anything-- we still need internal consistency. But it's important to remember that Autochthonian infrastructure is mostly either naturally-occurring parts of the landscape, or part of a metropolitan Alchemical. They mostly don't know how to build factories. When they need infrastructure, they look to their cities.
      Last edited by Fitter Happier; 08-06-2018, 03:42 PM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
        They can with martial arts.
        I don't remember a single Martial Art Style that enables one to destroy spirits. Maybe Sidereal Martial Arts, which Alchemicals cannot learn.

        Alchemicals cannot use the Charms of the Immaculate Dragon Styles, which also cannot destroy spirits, and Dragon-Blooded Charms cannot permanently destroy spirits which have a method of resurrection.

        The only way Alchemicals had in Second Edition was a Voidtech submodule.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          I don't remember a single Martial Art Style that enables one to destroy spirits. Maybe Sidereal Martial Arts, which Alchemicals cannot learn.

          Alchemicals cannot use the Charms of the Immaculate Dragon Styles, which also cannot destroy spirits, and Dragon-Blooded Charms cannot permanently destroy spirits which have a method of resurrection.

          The only way Alchemicals had in Second Edition was a Voidtech submodule.
          Last time I checked soul mastery let you destroy spirits and I don't remember alchemicals being barred from those.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
            Last time I checked soul mastery let you destroy spirits and I don't remember alchemicals being barred from those.
            They are in Autotochtonia, where theres no Wood (hehe...) Element... Much less the Immaculate Wood Dragon Style.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post

              They are in Autotochtonia, where theres no Wood (hehe...) Element... Much less the Immaculate Wood Dragon Style.
              Neither are there snakes or mantises but those style still exist.

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              • #67
                I think they would be capable of learning the styles if anyone in Autochthonia knew them. They got up to celestial, right?

                So, theoretically, there could be an autochthonian MA that does destroy spirits.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                  Neither are there snakes or mantises but those style still exist.
                  You do know that the Immaculate Styles have a specific history that does not exist in Autotochtonia, right?

                  The IMAs were invented long after Autotochton's departure from Creation, while the other styles can be said to pre Exodus relics, the IMAs cannot.

                  Still, this argument is a bit of a strawman, to the argument that "cannot permanently destroy spirits" is something that can be said os most Exalts, sans Solars, as has been discussed by the Devs.

                  The power to put a permanent end to spirits is very rare, and not native to most Exalts, and even when made available it is the 11 Charms deep capstone of an esoteric martial art.

                  One that does not exist in Autotochtonia, obviously.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                    Last time I checked soul mastery let you destroy spirits and I don't remember alchemicals being barred from those.
                    They will be if they are limited to the Terrestrial level, but you're right, we haven't actually been told that Alchemicals will have that limitation.


                    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by TGUEIROS View Post

                      You do know that the Immaculate Styles have a specific history that does not exist in Autotochtonia, right?

                      The IMAs were invented long after Autotochton's departure from Creation, while the other styles can be said to pre Exodus relics, the IMAs cannot.

                      Still, this argument is a bit of a strawman, to the argument that "cannot permanently destroy spirits" is something that can be said os most Exalts, sans Solars, as has been discussed by the Devs.

                      The power to put a permanent end to spirits is very rare, and not native to most Exalts, and even when made available it is the 11 Charms deep capstone of an esoteric martial art.

                      One that does not exist in Autotochtonia, obviously.
                      If an alchemical wanted to use develop a style to kill spirits it wouldn't be out of bounds for them to do so, was my point.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                        If an alchemical wanted to use develop a style to kill spirits it wouldn't be out of bounds for them to do so, was my point.
                        I don’t think they could make anything better for the job than Golden Janissary Style.


                        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                        • #72
                          Okay, a few things going on here.

                          Setting aside the question for whether or not a martial art can be developed or learned to overcome a limitation such as killing spirits at will, the nature of martial arts in the system and setting doesn't exactly mean that the limitations of any given Exalt type are irrelevant. If not being able to do something natively didn't matter, and didn't say anything about a type's nature or its place in the setting, because it was possible to learn a Martial Art to do it instead, then there'd never be a point in that sidebar that keeps reminding us that Solars can't shoot their mouth off on the end of a tentacle.

                          Hell, with the Dragon Blooded, the fact that their own Charms don't permanently kill spirits, but Immaculate Martial Arts can makes for a very significant skewed hierarchy in the culture of the Realm's Exalted.

                          Alchemical martial artists might not have quite that clout (not least because Autochthonian society was written as having a very different relationship with spirits), but the distinction still has consequence.

                          Still, as pedantic nitpickery of a tree that is missing the forest around it goes, fine, the particular native limitation of permanently slaying spirits is something that Alchemicals can find their way around.

                          It's a bit harder for them to find a martial art that will cure God of his illness.

                          Originally posted by Fitter Happier View Post
                          People didn't build the factory, people didn't build the conduits, none of that stuff is the result of human labor.
                          Eh, I only really find this to be half consistent with the written material.

                          I also feel as though it doesn't necessarily matter so much, as regards some things with interaction with Creation. At least some of the stuff that they're manufacturing in Autochthonia wouldn't exactly be dependent on remaining in Autochthonia, and some of it is going to provide advantages.

                          Even if they're sometimes disadvantaged in ways that people wouldn't necessarily expect. To paraphrase Lea, cars aren't exactly useful if you're going somewhere with no paved roads.

                          Still, things like manufactured pipes... there are human civilizations that existed thousands of years ago that had underground plumbing, so I wouldn't find it inconceivable for the setting to have some places that have ready groundwork for an upgrade.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Morangias View Post
                            Just like the Incarnae couldn't attack the Primordials with their own power (i.e. the Exalted) and thus the Primordial War never happened... oh wait.
                            The geas prevented the gods from directly attacking the Primordials. It did not prevent the gods from empowering a third party and then using that third party to attack the Primordials. Not sure what your point is.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Frostav View Post
                              The geas prevented the gods from directly attacking the Primordials. It did not prevent the gods from empowering a third party and then using that third party to attack the Primordials. Not sure what your point is.
                              My point is, Exalted don't suffer the same limitations as their patrons, and thus a book stating Autochthon can't cure himself is inconsequential for determining whether the Alchemicals can cure him.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Morangias View Post
                                Exalted don't suffer the same limitations as their patrons
                                In the original mythology ascribed to the matter, I feel as though not being limited because the Primordials never bothered to geas you does not necessarily imply having some intrinsic capacity to rise beyond.

                                I wonder where along the line the idea that the Primordials had a form of immortality that made them literally unkillable, and hence the presence of things like Ghost-Eating Technique moved the Exalted from being given a task that their patrons were constrained against (and being mighty enough to do it) to becoming something between a kind of Primordial kryptonite and recalibrating premises of the cosmos.

                                Originally posted by Morangias
                                a book stating Autochthon can't cure himself is inconsequential for determining whether the Alchemicals can cure him.
                                I don't have either of the Autochthonia books to hand, so I'd be interested in a direct reminded of what the passage in question says. I'm pretty sure that I recall writers and developers of the time being involved in discussions from the position that the Alchemicals could not cure Autochthon.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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