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  • The other issue with comparing the Legendary Size Lunar charm to a Warstrider is that they have very different accessibility issues.

    Putting on a Warstrider requires doing the following:

    1. Going to where the Warstrider currently is.
    2. Inserting a Greater Hearthstone into the socket.
    3. Suiting up, which takes ten minutes and help from another person. Charms can potentially get it down to one minute or ten combat rounds. I don’t know that I’ve been in a 3e combat that’s lasted ten rounds.
    4. Once you’ve suited up, walked back to the fight, and done any mopping up that might be required (because, as noted, the fight is probably already over by now), you’ll have to spend an hour maintaining the thing which requires a large wagon’s worth of supplies and tools that you’re carrying around in addition to the Warstrider.

    The Lunar charm presumably requires doing the following:

    1. Spend a single combat action to turn into Gojira.
    2. Proceed to rampage through the area with abandon and collapse the Manse housing the Warstrider on top of the guy still trying to boot up the Dynatherm Connection Sequence.
    3. ????
    4. Profit!

    So, yeah. The Warstrider has a fair number of advantages over a Tyrant Lizard...but being able to turn into a Tyrant Lizard anytime you want has a fair number of advantages on its own.


    ....

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    • Also, I’m pretty sure they said on the podcast that there was a higher essence upgrade that removed the 4m per turn cost of the base charm. So, that’ll be fun.


      ....

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

        That does penalize your mote recovery, though, compared to someone who's bought another Artifact 5 and a greater Hearthstone, because the warstrider pilot doesn't get the benefit of the hearthstone while it's plugged into the warstrider.
        As far as I know, Hearthstones don't generate additional motes in combat, so you're not really losing out on anything unless you're talking about your out of combat regeneration, which is okay fine. But as far as I know, a Lunar with a hearthstone doesn't get to offset these costs.



        Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
        Basically, it seems to me that the devs are having to balance three desires that are, to a greater or lesser extent, conflicting. First, people want legendary-size creatures available as spirit shapes. It's too cool not to be able to say "My real form is a TYRANT LIZARD! RAR!" and blow the roof off the teahouse where someone just spilled your jasmine tea on your new tunic. Second, people want these forms to be useful in combat, and to feel like you're the actual creature in question, not just a cheap knockoff. If you can transform into a tyrant lizard, but you're only 8 feet tall and your bite isn't that much better than someone with a daiklaive, people are going to get upset. And, finally, there's the desire for people who don't choose such an enormous spirit shape to not be completely left behind, combat-wise. It shouldn't be a massive penalty to have a hummingbird as a spirit shape, as opposed to the tyrant lizard.
        Yes, but the problem is that while these forms may be useful in combat, they inhibit charm usage due to ruining your mote economy. Give how much everyone and their mother says you should be very careful about letting exalts get more motes per turn in recovery, I'd imagine that the same goes for gaining less. The problem with lowing the mote economy is that you cannot sustain many other combat charms other than your giant size. Which unless you want Kaiju Lunars to have all the depth of one charm, I don't see it working too well.

        Also, that last point is sort of irrelevant as there's a charm to make a smaller form massive, so that doesn't really apply. You can also take those forms at a later date without issue.

        Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
        Given the need to satisfy these desires, something's got to give, mechanically. If maintaining a full Legendary Size tyrant lizard form is something a character can do in addition to a bunch of other Lunar combat charms, well, it's going to suck to be a non-Legendary Size form, because they're getting a bunch of huge combat bonuses that you probably just can't access, in addition to whatever combat charms you've got. So, we get what's been presented: you can turn into a Legendary Sized creature, and indeed maintain it indefinitely, but you can't throw a bunch of other combat charms on top of it and still maintain it forever. Note that you can throw a bunch of combat charms! It just reduces the duration you can maintain the form. And, in fact, since it's slightly less than the mote-regeneration rate, you can actually build up your reserves again, and potentially unleash your fight-ending wombo-combo if you want, you just need to wait a bit to do so, doing "nothing" except being a gigantic beast stomping around the battlefield who's almost impossible to significantly hinder.
        I mean a 15 mote commitment is already pretty hefty investment. 4m a turn is just excessive in my eyes. And no, you cannot keep throwing combat charms, and you cannot regenerate it in a reasonable time span. 1m/turn is pitiful, that's only 20% the base rate.

        Also, the thing is, with huge combat bonuses the bonuses are more meaningful the less invested you are into combat. This means that as far as combat viability goes, this one charm far out does any other individual charm, whilst at the same time interfering with any other charms too. So this creates a new problem instead: Non-Combat focused characters get the most benefit from the current way it works.


        Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
        I suspect that you'll be hard-pressed to find animals with the combination of good die pools, good damage, and good soak/hardness that a Legendary Size creature has. In the core book, for example, of the seven creatures with Legendary Size, only three (the ox-dragon, the siege lizard, and the yeddim) have less than 9 dice for their most damaging attack (and those three all have 7 or 8 dice, which is not nothing), and all except the yeddim have damage rolls of 15+, with minimum damage that starts at 3 and goes up. All of them have soak of 10+ (20 in the case of the siege lizard!). And all except the emperor sloth, ox-dragon, and tyrant lizard have hardness 10.

        Compare all that to the other animals - some get comparable dice to roll for the attack, or damage, but very few get minimum damage (I only count two that do), and soak rarely goes above about 6, and hardness is usually limited to about 2 or 3, if they get it at all.
        Though, again, characters who already have really good die pools get less benefit than those with very small die pools. However, the main thing is that if you can find a really good "normal" sized animal with amazing die pools or abilities, you can mix those considerably more easily with lunar combat charms. Even then, the more animals that are printed, the more options there will be for a non-legendary size animal that's amazing. Which means you gotta make non-legendary sized animals non-threatening for meta concerns so Lunars cannot take them, or you will inevitably make a powerful non-legendary size animal that's far lower cost will beat whatever benefits you get out of a Kaiju lunar.


        The issue I have is that, in short, the worse you are at combat, the better Kaiju lunar is, as you will have no room for any other supplemental charms, and massive die pool bonuses only are meaningful if your die pools aren't large already.

        It's concerning, because this sounds like it'll become the DBT meta... again. Why? Because shapeshifting into animals is already restricting you to essentially Lunar charms and maybe armor evocations, further restricting it to nothing but raw die pools and monster attacks seems like it'll make it non-viable in the long run. Compared to DBT, which gets everything, on top of a nice power boost.



        Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
        The other issue with comparing the Legendary Size Lunar charm to a Warstrider is that they have very different accessibility issues.

        Putting on a Warstrider requires doing the following:

        1. Going to where the Warstrider currently is.
        2. Inserting a Greater Hearthstone into the socket.
        3. Suiting up, which takes ten minutes and help from another person. Charms can potentially get it down to one minute or ten combat rounds. I don’t know that I’ve been in a 3e combat that’s lasted ten rounds.
        4. Once you’ve suited up, walked back to the fight, and done any mopping up that might be required (because, as noted, the fight is probably already over by now), you’ll have to spend an hour maintaining the thing which requires a large wagon’s worth of supplies and tools that you’re carrying around in addition to the Warstrider.

        The Lunar charm presumably requires doing the following:

        1. Spend a single combat action to turn into Gojira.
        2. Proceed to rampage through the area with abandon and collapse the Manse housing the Warstrider on top of the guy still trying to boot up the Dynatherm Connection Sequence.
        3. ????
        4. Profit!

        So, yeah. The Warstrider has a fair number of advantages over a Tyrant Lizard...but being able to turn into a Tyrant Lizard anytime you want has a fair number of advantages on its own.

        Yep, I'm just stating that they're not a 1:1. From what I know the Lunar does not inherit the health boxes of the creature they turn into, whereas a Warstrider always has something like 25+ boxes. In terms of investment to get a Warstrider, it's a 5 dot artifact, and a 4 dot hearthstone, versus a charm to get the creature, and several charms to get the health on par with the creature.

        So Warstrider's cheaper, but generally more powerful, but it's more fiddly to use. Okay, fine. I think that's a good trade off.

        Then you add an additional 4m tax and I think that's where it becomes excessive. Sure if it can be removed at high essence with another charm that makes it less problematic... but by then Kaiju's probably fallen off a bit and if you're focused on combat, you'll probably have invested resources into charms or evocations that don't work in Kaiju/animal form.


        Again, it goes back to what I said before, the characters who can use it best are those who aren't focused on combat. Changing and No Moons probably get the most mileage out of it, which is counter intuitive, at least to me. They have more opportunities to get it into places where it can do the most damage, but the combat-focused full moon is probably going to get little benefit out of it since they're probably actually good at fighting natively (Thus going from 10 to 14 dice isn't as large of a difference than going from say 6 to 14 dice).
        Last edited by ReshyShira; 09-12-2018, 01:40 AM.

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        • If I remember correctly, dice bonuses due to using animal stats count as bonuses from charms. So, a non-combat Lunar might not be able to use a Tyrant Lizard to the fullest.

          There’s also the question of “How did you get this form anyway?” A non-combat focused Lunar prolly isn’t going to take a Tyrant Lizard as their totem and the other main way to gain forms requires that you hunt and kill the animal in question, which is certainly not an easy fight and might be impossible if you’re not combat focused.

          Another consideration is that these forms are ...well, of Legendary Size. They’re huge. If turning into a Kaiju is your only combat trick, then a fight indoors or one where you don’t want to reveal yourself as a Shapeshifting Monster will create complications.

          Another aspect of Lunars is that they’re adaptable. Solars tend to come at you with overwhelming power, capable of using all their might together at once. Lunars seem like they’re the ones with all the options. If one option doesn’t work, they’ll just try another one. So, even if it’s hard to use a complex combat suite together with a Kaiju form, it sounds like having both options isn’t that hard to get and having a big hammer in the toolbox is never useless.

          Ultimately though, I think we’ll just need to wait and see.


          ....

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
            If I remember correctly, dice bonuses due to using animal stats count as bonuses from charms. So, a non-combat Lunar might not be able to use a Tyrant Lizard to the fullest.

            There’s also the question of “How did you get this form anyway?” A non-combat focused Lunar prolly isn’t going to take a Tyrant Lizard as their totem and the other main way to gain forms requires that you hunt and kill the animal in question, which is certainly not an easy fight and might be impossible if you’re not combat focused.

            Another consideration is that these forms are ...well, of Legendary Size. They’re huge. If turning into a Kaiju is your only combat trick, then a fight indoors or one where you don’t want to reveal yourself as a Shapeshifting Monster will create complications.

            Another aspect of Lunars is that they’re adaptable. Solars tend to come at you with overwhelming power, capable of using all their might together at once. Lunars seem like they’re the ones with all the options. If one option doesn’t work, they’ll just try another one. So, even if it’s hard to use a complex combat suite together with a Kaiju form, it sounds like having both options isn’t that hard to get and having a big hammer in the toolbox is never useless.

            Ultimately though, I think we’ll just need to wait and see.
            I'm unsure how you'd calculate if it's beyond what you can add from dice. Guessing there'd be a metric. But as Lunars can add most any attribute on top of the most obvious one, getting to the full bonus is probably still possible. That's assuming you're not just given those dice even if it goes past your excellency capacity.

            I mean there are other ways to gain a form other than fighting and killing this, that's already been established. So a Lunar can gain forms by playing to their strengths.

            I mean, if you're playing someone who relies on their Kaiju as their stick, then they're probably very focused on being good with the carrot. As combat's usually a last resort in such cases, what does it matter at that point?

            The problem with lots of options is that takes lots of investment, and that's a lot harder to ask of someone to do to be equally good in human form, DBT, and Kaiju. I mean sure it's possible, but nobody has endless XP, so to achieve it it'd come at the cost of... everything else.

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            • I’m wondering what the Charm investment for Daikaiju Combat vs DBT is? If it’s shallow in the Charm tree, there isn’t any reason you couldn’t take both and round out your character as well. (Which is a scary thought)

              I mean, you wouldn’t use all of it at once of course, but having an anti battle group and close quarter form at character creation seems to play to the Lunar’s versatility.
              Last edited by prototype00; 09-12-2018, 07:00 AM.

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              • Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post

                I'm unsure how you'd calculate if it's beyond what you can add from dice. Guessing there'd be a metric. But as Lunars can add most any attribute on top of the most obvious one, getting to the full bonus is probably still possible. That's assuming you're not just given those dice even if it goes past your excellency capacity.

                I mean there are other ways to gain a form other than fighting and killing this, that's already been established. So a Lunar can gain forms by playing to their strengths.

                I mean, if you're playing someone who relies on their Kaiju as their stick, then they're probably very focused on being good with the carrot. As combat's usually a last resort in such cases, what does it matter at that point?

                The problem with lots of options is that takes lots of investment, and that's a lot harder to ask of someone to do to be equally good in human form, DBT, and Kaiju. I mean sure it's possible, but nobody has endless XP, so to achieve it it'd come at the cost of... everything else.
                I'm pretty sure that the dice cap is just [Attribute] when it comes to shapeshifting. So if you've got Dex 3 normally, you only get Dex 6 at maximum from whatever form you turn into. While you're in that form you can stunt using str to boost your dex, but I think then extra dice would then have to come from your normal excellency rather than from the form. Best to Ask the Devs on this one.

                Regardless, your abilities remain the same. If you have brawl 1, you still suck at brawl as a kaiju, regardless of what the original creature could do. I feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill with this whole 'non-combat focused people get the most benefit' because I really don't think they get as much as you imply.


                Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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                • I asked Vance a year ago about excellencies, but I just checked again to make sure it hadn't changed:
                  Originally posted by Me
                  When I asked you a year ago Vance, you said Lunar excellencies are based on the Lunar's own stats (though you hadn't quite decided about Strength to damage and Stamina to soak).
                  So if you have Dex 4, then you can use the Dex excellency to add 4 dice to your attack whether in the form of a turtle or a tiger or a tyrant lizard (unlike in 2nd ed, where if their dice pool was bigger than yours it took away from your dice cap).

                  Is that still true?

                  Originally posted by Vance
                  Yep.


                  Also, he said you can use their dice pool if it's better than the animals.

                  So, I'd say having a big animal form for combat is a slightly better investment for low-dice pool Lunars, as they're increasing their dice pool more, but a Lunar with a big natural set of attributes is still going to be a more dangerous Tyrant Lizard as she can add more dice.
                  Also, while you're in the form of, say, a bear, a Lunar with better natural pools in some areas (say, combat movement, which bears don't have such a good dice pool in) would have better dice pools than a bear normally does.

                  So in the end I don't think it's a big issue.

                  Originally posted by prototype00
                  I’m wondering what the Charm investment for Daikaiju Combat vs DBT is? If it’s shallow in the Charm tree, there isn’t any reason you couldn’t take both and round out your character as well. (Which is a scary thought)
                  As they're both things you can take at character gen, I expect both of them to have minimal investment. I suspect DBT will simply require HBT and Strength 3 or 4, and the charm for taking Legendary size creatures will probably have 0-3 prereqs, all Essence 1, and require Strength or Stamina 3 or 4.

                  The Essence 4 charm to ignore the 4m per turn cost of being in Legendary Size, however, I expect to have a lot of investment required.


                  "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                  • I wouldn’t be surprised if Towering Beast Form had a Strength 5 minimum, because it’s clearly the Charm choice for someone interested in maxing out Strength beyond Strength.

                    It’s a niche Charm that not even all characters based on brute strength will want to learn.


                    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                    • I wouldn't think so, because it's a charm that needs to be taken for certain character concepts. If your character is a Roc-totem sailor who got lost at sea and had various adventures, or a big fat whale-sage, or a slow-but-tough Yeddim-lady, or the elephant colonialist King of the jungle, you need that charm.

                      Which isn't to say the rules won't say you have to have Strength 5, but I'd expect 3 or 4.

                      Or possibly it'll have the Totem charm, and let you take it with a lower attribute if you have a Legendary Size totem.


                      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                      • Why would a whale lord, a yeddim lady, or an elephant man NOT have Strength 5?


                        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                        • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                          Why would a whale lord, a yeddim lady, or an elephant man NOT have Strength 5?
                          Because they ALSO want Stamina 5 and ran out of attribute dots at chargen?

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                          • Also, generally speaking I don't think it's good for the game to force people to start with 5s via charm prerequisites. I'm sure the upgrades will be Strength 5, and that's fine, but I don't think all elephant-totem Lunars should need Strength 5.

                            I mean, if you're playing a Ganeshi-Elephant-Sage, with great wisdom, not to mention that Elephants never forget, then you might well be mental primary and physical tertiary. Which is maybe 7 dots? (Might be 6, like Solars, but I heard Lunars get a fat 9/7/5.)
                            So if you need Strength 5, you'll have maybe Stamina 3 and Dexterity 2. Which is not, like, terrible. But I don't see it as something the game should demand.
                            I think Strength 4 is fine, for an Essence 1 charm that probably doesn't have many prerequisites.

                            Or it could be, say, Strength 5 but if you have a totem with Legendary Size you can take it at Stamina 3, or something.


                            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                            • There are multiple ways to express the mythical archetypes associated with any animal. Ex3 is moving away from one true builds for Lunar and part of that is the freedom to do whatever you want.

                              Towering Beast Form is probably the first charm in the tree so it's easy for people to snag their totem and move on. It costs that much to use because it comes with a lot of benefits at essence 1and like 1 or 2 charms deep right out of the gate. It's not going to autowin a fight, but it definitely sends a message and provides tons of shapeshifting stunt-fodder.

                              Unless I've misread the clarifications.
                              Last edited by Monghani; 09-12-2018, 05:29 PM.

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                              • Doublepost!
                                Last edited by Monghani; 09-12-2018, 05:24 PM.

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