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  • Re: Legendary Size, yes, it is pretty good, although not as great against Exalted-scale foes as one might hope. This is based off playing a Solar sorceress who did a working to allow her to assume such a large form (only in the Wyld or in an uncapped Demense she owned, although she could maintain it away from those places so long as she was prepared to be huge); Lunars would have even easier access so the mote tax is fairly important, I'd say. Warstriders have more setup but Legendary Size is really the least of their benefits; if you're investing into evocations at all the evocations of the striders in Arms are of far more interest.

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    • Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post
      I'm pretty sure that the dice cap is just [Attribute] when it comes to shapeshifting. So if you've got Dex 3 normally, you only get Dex 6 at maximum from whatever form you turn into. While you're in that form you can stunt using str to boost your dex, but I think then extra dice would then have to come from your normal excellency rather than from the form. Best to Ask the Devs on this one.

      Regardless, your abilities remain the same. If you have brawl 1, you still suck at brawl as a kaiju, regardless of what the original creature could do. I feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill with this whole 'non-combat focused people get the most benefit' because I really don't think they get as much as you imply.
      From what I know, you can just use the attack pool of the animal you take the form of, as well as their soak, damage totals, etc. When Vance says you calculate using excellency well that has some issues innately: First is calculating where the creature's die pools come from so you know how to properly account for it (do they get the +4/+5 because it's an unarmed attack?) and it may just mean you cannot excellency if it's higher than what you normally could excellency.


      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
      I asked Vance a year ago about excellencies, but I just checked again to make sure it hadn't changed:

      [/I]

      Also, he said you can use their dice pool if it's better than the animals.

      So, I'd say having a big animal form for combat is a slightly better investment for low-dice pool Lunars, as they're increasing their dice pool more, but a Lunar with a big natural set of attributes is still going to be a more dangerous Tyrant Lizard as she can add more dice.
      Also, while you're in the form of, say, a bear, a Lunar with better natural pools in some areas (say, combat movement, which bears don't have such a good dice pool in) would have better dice pools than a bear normally does.

      So in the end I don't think it's a big issue.


      As they're both things you can take at character gen, I expect both of them to have minimal investment. I suspect DBT will simply require HBT and Strength 3 or 4, and the charm for taking Legendary size creatures will probably have 0-3 prereqs, all Essence 1, and require Strength or Stamina 3 or 4.

      The Essence 4 charm to ignore the 4m per turn cost of being in Legendary Size, however, I expect to have a lot of investment required.
      Well there lies the issue: The combat focused person who wants to boost their stats with an excellency will find they don't get anywhere near enough motes to work with. Whereas, someone getting upscaled by having poor die pools to begin with will not have any problems because it's not like they were going to have much of an excellency anyway.

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      • I recall seeing that grappling rolls are unopposed against Legendary Sized Creatures by mortal sized Exalted. Also the Tyrant Lizard has some nice tricks in the grapple department.

        Unopposable Combat Style that deals oodles of Damage, I wonder if it might be a legit combat style for them?

        Edit: Regarding Daikaiju and the endurance of mote drip in fights, I always recall when playing Lunars in 2nd ed, they had powerful effects (more powerful than Solars sometimes) but were nowhere near as efficient.

        With perfect/paranoia combat, this was an inherent weakness, but with that aspect gone, I look forward to something similar in 3rd Ed. Frighteningly deadly effects that activate quickly but are expensive.

        Maybe, we’ll see.
        Last edited by prototype00; 09-12-2018, 10:04 PM.

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        • My understanding of this is that, if the animal has, say, a feat of strength die pool of 7, then a Lunar with Str 3 and Ath 0 can only use 6 dice of that pool, a Lunar with Str 3 and Ath 1 has hit their dice cap, a Lunar with Str 3 and Ath 3 can only add 2 dice, and a Lunar with Str 3 and Ath 4 or 5 can add their full 3 dice to the pool.

          Basically, animals act sorta like scene length dice adders but can’t break the cap. That said, because animals just have a pool of dice, you can buy up the correct ability to free up more excellency dice instead of boosting an Attribute.


          ....

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          • Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
            My understanding of this is that, if the animal has, say, a feat of strength die pool of 7, then a Lunar with Str 3 and Ath 0 can only use 6 dice of that pool, a Lunar with Str 3 and Ath 1 has hit their dice cap, a Lunar with Str 3 and Ath 3 can only add 2 dice, and a Lunar with Str 3 and Ath 4 or 5 can add their full 3 dice to the pool.

            Basically, animals act sorta like scene length dice adders but can’t break the cap. That said, because animals just have a pool of dice, you can buy up the correct ability to free up more excellency dice instead of boosting an Attribute.
            Do the dice cap take into consideration the second attribute you can get on a stunt?

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            • My understanding is that a Lunar enjoys an animal form's FULL DICE POOLS, even if that would break their dice-adding limit. The trade-off being that they can't add any more dice to such pools.


              Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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              • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                My understanding is that a Lunar enjoys an animal form's FULL DICE POOLS, even if that would break their dice-adding limit. The trade-off being that they can't add any more dice to such pools.
                Based on the current discussion in the ask the devs thread, this does not seem to be the case.

                Edit: Ah, no, you are correct. I saw pool and thought Cap.
                Last edited by prototype00; 09-12-2018, 11:14 PM.

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                • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                  My understanding is that a Lunar enjoys an animal form's FULL DICE POOLS, even if that would break their dice-adding limit. The trade-off being that they can't add any more dice to such pools.
                  Confusingly (I apologise) it appears I was right the first time:

                  Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post

                  Dex 3, Brawl 3 Lunar has a default dice cap of +3 on attacks. Her normal attack pool is 6, +3 Charm dice brings that up to 9. 11 is higher than 9. She only rolls nine dice to attack, because she can't go over her dice limit.

                  Dex 5, Brawl 5 Lunar has a default dice cap of +5 on attacks. Her normal attack pool is 10, +5 Charm dice brings that up to 15. 11 is lower than 15. She rolls 11 dice for attacks, and could add up to +4 more with the Dexterity Excellency or other Charms.

                  (Stunting might change the above math)
                  Last edited by prototype00; 09-12-2018, 11:25 PM.

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                  • I personally wouldn't compare kaiju form to a warstrider, but to a supernal Survival Solar with such a familiar.

                    I would hope that a Lunar who invests in kicking ass as a Tyrant Lizard is not vastly outperformed by a Solar who invests in kicking ass alongside his or her Tyrant Lizard pet. Currently playing such a Solar and looking at those Lunar dice caps, plus knowing the survival & ride charms I doubt the Lunar will actually compare favorably to a Solar's familiar.

                    And then of course the Solar him- or herself can still take actions and the comparison could turn really ugly?

                    Of course I hope this is not the case, but it might be worth playtesting. Not measuring up to a pet would suck.

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                    • I'm just confused by how animal dice pools and their caps work at this point, so I'm not going to comment on that...

                      I will just say though:
                      Originally posted by prototype00
                      I always recall when playing Lunars in 2nd ed, they had powerful effects (more powerful than Solars sometimes) but were nowhere near as efficient.
                      I actually found them the other way, because they had so many really cheap scene-long buffs (based on either Gift or Fury-okay stuff). But on individual attacks, they couldn't throw so much in.


                      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                      • Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post

                        From what I know, you can just use the attack pool of the animal you take the form of, as well as their soak, damage totals, etc. When Vance says you calculate using excellency well that has some issues innately: First is calculating where the creature's die pools come from so you know how to properly account for it (do they get the +4/+5 because it's an unarmed attack?) and it may just mean you cannot excellency if it's higher than what you normally could excellency.
                        I was actually mistaken in what I was thinking the stats would be.

                        You just use the QC stats of the animal with no distinction between Attribute, ability or accuracy bonuses. This makes things much faster in play as you simply need to know your character's maximum dice pool with excellency cap and you compare that to the form's pool.

                        This approach does have some drawbacks, however. Let's use the example of the Quoll-Lion:

                        1. as I confirmed in the Ask the Devs thread, your ability is equally important to your dice cap when calculating how much excellency you can throw at a problem while in a form. So with the Quoll-Lion form which has a bite (7 dice [ damage 14]) and a claw (11 dice [damage 10]) attacks, if you were playing a lunar with Dex 5, brawl 1, your normal dice cap would be 11 dice. This means you'd be at your cap for the claw attack but be able to boost your bite attack up to 11 as well. A lunar with Dex 5, Brawl 3, on the other hand. Would have a cap of 13 dice, so this second lunar would be able to boost up both attacks to 13 dice. Now you can look at this two ways. Either this means that the lunar is capped based on what their ability is, or as I've come to view it, the first lunar is simply compensating for their lack of of skill by building excellency use into the transformation.

                        2. Accuracy becomes an issue. If we look at the Quoll-Lion, it's two attacks can be matched exactly by a melee combatant with str 3, Dex 5 and brawl 2 using a light weapon (claw) and a heavy weapon (bite) both mortal. However, a lunar in their own form with such a build would be:

                        Dex 5, str 3, Brawl 2, heavy weapon (7 dice [14 damage]) (no-stunt die cap: 12)
                        Dex 5, str 3, brawl 2, light weapon (11 dice [10 damage]) (no-stunt die cap: 16)

                        vs Quoll-Lion

                        Bite (7 dice [damage 14]) (lunar form die cap: 12)
                        claw (11 dice [damage 10]) (lunar form die cap: 12)

                        Notice the difference here? Accuracy from weapons is normally non-charm dice, but when using QC stats there's no way to effectively separate it out and thus everything above your base stats is counted as dice from charms.

                        This one I'm not sure is easy to explain away, but it does provide a tradeoff - you get the extra accuracy for free. You're still rolling 11 dice without spending any motes. The tradeoff is that you simply cannot achieve the same dice pools that you could if you were using a light weapon. The one thing I'm not sure on, though, is damage. Vance has stated that you can use your own pools if they're better than the form's but does this include damage? Can you use the form's 11 dice accuracy and then if you had str 5, would your damage be 12 since that's your regular unarmed damage?


                        Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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                        • Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post
                          I was actually mistaken in what I was thinking the stats would be.

                          You just use the QC stats of the animal with no distinction between Attribute, ability or accuracy bonuses. This makes things much faster in play as you simply need to know your character's maximum dice pool with excellency cap and you compare that to the form's pool.

                          This approach does have some drawbacks, however. Let's use the example of the Quoll-Lion:

                          1. as I confirmed in the Ask the Devs thread, your ability is equally important to your dice cap when calculating how much excellency you can throw at a problem while in a form. So with the Quoll-Lion form which has a bite (7 dice [ damage 14]) and a claw (11 dice [damage 10]) attacks, if you were playing a lunar with Dex 5, brawl 1, your normal dice cap would be 11 dice. This means you'd be at your cap for the claw attack but be able to boost your bite attack up to 11 as well. A lunar with Dex 5, Brawl 3, on the other hand. Would have a cap of 13 dice, so this second lunar would be able to boost up both attacks to 13 dice. Now you can look at this two ways. Either this means that the lunar is capped based on what their ability is, or as I've come to view it, the first lunar is simply compensating for their lack of of skill by building excellency use into the transformation.

                          2. Accuracy becomes an issue. If we look at the Quoll-Lion, it's two attacks can be matched exactly by a melee combatant with str 3, Dex 5 and brawl 2 using a light weapon (claw) and a heavy weapon (bite) both mortal. However, a lunar in their own form with such a build would be:

                          Dex 5, str 3, Brawl 2, heavy weapon (7 dice [14 damage]) (no-stunt die cap: 12)
                          Dex 5, str 3, brawl 2, light weapon (11 dice [10 damage]) (no-stunt die cap: 16)

                          vs Quoll-Lion

                          Bite (7 dice [damage 14]) (lunar form die cap: 12)
                          claw (11 dice [damage 10]) (lunar form die cap: 12)

                          Notice the difference here? Accuracy from weapons is normally non-charm dice, but when using QC stats there's no way to effectively separate it out and thus everything above your base stats is counted as dice from charms.

                          This one I'm not sure is easy to explain away, but it does provide a tradeoff - you get the extra accuracy for free. You're still rolling 11 dice without spending any motes. The tradeoff is that you simply cannot achieve the same dice pools that you could if you were using a light weapon. The one thing I'm not sure on, though, is damage. Vance has stated that you can use your own pools if they're better than the form's but does this include damage? Can you use the form's 11 dice accuracy and then if you had str 5, would your damage be 12 since that's your regular unarmed damage?


                          Yeah, that's something that came to my mind and made me a bit worried. Clawstrider is the same way, and with how Lunar excellency seems to be limited to 5 dice, that means you can only ever get up to 5 dice above your natural die pool in animal form which is.. weird (And highly limiting). Honestly I think it'd be easier if it was just "use the die pools of the animal" and if it's over your cap then you can only use stunt+other attribute excellencies. I am hoping that the unarmed accuracy bonus does get added to what the animals to-hit rate is, before calculating whatever the excellency limits are. Else I'm unsure how animals could compete with using manufactured weapons if your accuracy doesn't matter but it does matter in animals (but is entirely unlisted).


                          This also means that if you want to use animal forms for any combat at all you have to have Brawl (Since it doesn't seem to care if you're better at melee because animals cannot use melee and thus don't contribute to the die pool).


                          All of the limitations that animal forms get are making me really lukewarm about them for combat. Making me think that DBT will be the big thing for 3e.
                          Last edited by ReshyShira; 09-13-2018, 05:59 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post
                            All of the limitations that animal forms get are making me really lukewarm about them for combat. Making me think that DBT will be the big thing for 3e.
                            To be fair a big chunk of the combat use of animal forms is going to rely on what exactly the protean keyword does for them as far as extra effects.

                            I am expecting one or two animal forms to be able to hold their own while the rest fall off into trap options, its unfortunate but a eagle,bear,hellboar,wolf and giant cat are not equal combatants even though they have the same "cost" to shape shift in.

                            Though on the note of DBT being the one true build it should be noted that it does lower your evocation resonance a step, so if there is a sweet combo based off of lunar charms and some evocations that might be enough too open a second combat option.

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                            • Originally posted by Calboon View Post
                              To be fair a big chunk of the combat use of animal forms is going to rely on what exactly the protean keyword does for them as far as extra effects.

                              I am expecting one or two animal forms to be able to hold their own while the rest fall off into trap options, its unfortunate but a eagle,bear,hellboar,wolf and giant cat are not equal combatants even though they have the same "cost" to shape shift in.

                              Though on the note of DBT being the one true build it should be noted that it does lower your evocation resonance a step, so if there is a sweet combo based off of lunar charms and some evocations that might be enough too open a second combat option.

                              Evocations are designed by the players/GM so it's effect might not even be that strong.

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                              • Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post


                                Evocations are designed by the players/GM so it's effect might not even be that strong.
                                They can be but we have all the evocations in the core, arms of the chosen and what else is dropped in lunars proper to work with and I do not think that should be ignored.

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