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  • PneumaPilot
    started a topic Lunars Playtest

    Lunars Playtest

    If you want to know about it, we squee through the whole thing like self-control-impaired children at Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory on the new episode of The Deliberative.

    <whispers> The episode is actually live right now if you go and look...

  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    It is. And generally speaking, it requires a Difficulty 7(!) Perception+Awareness roll to notice.

    We had some questions for Vance about exactly how it works (in terms of stuff like if I see a Lunar with a Tell I've never seen before, can I roll to notice it, or retroactively if I see another animal with the same strange feature later, etc) and he said there's a section in the book that addresses this kind of thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Did the Survival training Charms include anything for giving direct commands? Because I'd say that the true master's compelling voice might be hard to imitate.

    It also might depend on how much object permanence one imagines a tyrant lizard to have; a shapeshifting Lunar might be able to imitate a scent perfectly enough to fool the keen senses of a tyrant lizard, but is it going to recognise that a scent that it was hunting has suddenly changed into a different one? Before even considering the improved acuity from being trained by a Solar.

    I think a Lunar who wants to try that tactic needs to come to the fight in the Solar's shape.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angwe
    replied
    Yeah, there's also a difference between a disguise, and actual shapeshifting. Would definitely not let a familiar automatically detect that! Or bound demons for that matter. I mean, as a Lunar wearing a DB's form you should be able to swagger past his or her's loyal guard dogs or the summoned help, right?

    Is the Tell still around, by the way?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wise Old Guru
    replied
    Originally posted by TalosX View Post

    Well the second option wouldn't work for our group. The devs have said it's up to the ST to decide if a simple disguise is enough to fool a familiar with a mystic bond. I'm of the opinion that it's not. Since I'm the ST, trying to fool the familiar with a disguise will end up with you getting eaten.

    As for the first option, it's something you could try. However, the familiar has absolute loyalty, so it's not going to stand by while you attack it's master. Your best bet would be to try and deceive it in a way that you're not calling it's loyalty into question. Something like convincing the Tyrant Lizard you just saw a herd of plump mountain goats on the other side of the hill, then attack the master while the familiar goes looking for a meal.
    Fair thing to rule. That said, if I'm the ST, which I usually am in my games, magical disguises don't get easily counteracted by ties like the Familiar bond or being a bound demon or, heck, the Solar/Lunar Bond. Disguises and mistaken identities and such just cause too much juicy drama to leave out of a game!

    If a Lunar is disguising herself as your Familiar, and you failed an opposed roll, I would say you're fooled until you try to use her senses or draw motes from her and it fails to work. If you're a Lunar and a Friend shows up disguised as your Solar Mate to convince you to do something and his Disguise roll beats you, I would say you're fooled until one of your Bond charms fails to work correctly on him.

    Defining Ties shouldn't be a perfect defense. They're also a "I am vulnerable to this method of persuasion" button that characters who are good at disguises can take advantage of.

    Nothing in the rules currently say a Night Caste can't go up to the Tyrant Lizard disguised as the Zenith who owns him and copy the Zenith's attack order to sic him on somebody without checking in with his circle mate...and the resulting drama is almost always gonna make for a better game.

    Familiars are cool animals, and the fact they have minds of their own means it's a bit harder to disarm you and hit you with your own medicine than if your weapon of choice is Volcano Cutter...but the thing about NPC pets and allies is that they do have minds of their own, and that means they'll do stuff sometimes that's not optimal, sometimes (intentionally or not) even stuff that goes against your best interests. I think that's half the fun!

    But since there's a bit of YMMV going on here, even putting aside impersonation of the Solar himself, there's probably going to be plenty of room in the Lunar charmset for social-fu tricks on animals, or during combat.

    Leave a comment:


  • Klaek
    replied
    Originally posted by TalosX View Post

    Well the second option wouldn't work for our group. The devs have said it's up to the ST to decide if a simple disguise is enough to fool a familiar with a mystic bond. I'm of the opinion that it's not. Since I'm the ST, trying to fool the familiar with a disguise will end up with you getting eaten.
    To me that makes familiars very valuable. An animal capable of seeing through any mundane disguise in relation to their masters appearance is crazy good. I could see it being common practice for paranoid merchant princes to have a pet bird to validate their identity if that is how they worked. Possibly almost expected in some circles as an authentication method. While this could be seen as needed to protect the sanctity of the familiar merit it does have an impact on the world and does screw over those interested in disguise.

    If the familiar had abilities that explicity interacted with its master i could see that as a form of detection. However none exist that i can find. If issues do arise then a solar can directly take control of their familiar with spirit tied pet. Maybe a working for a telepathic bond with a familiar could also work as a way to ensure they are never tricked. Or more mundane options of training using an obscure language.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReshyShira
    replied
    I have a question for those who've done the played the Lunar playtest, what reason is there to use moonsilver weapons if you're focused on Protean charms?

    Leave a comment:


  • TalosX
    replied
    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru View Post
    You're not gonna talk the T Rex into turning on the Solar, but you might talk it out of fighting you. Just be all, 'Look, bro, your Solar friend over there is trying to impress potential mates. If you fight me for him, he's not showing any dominance or fitness! The best thing you can do for him here is let him face me on his own. I promise I won't kill him if I win."

    "Hey, T-Rex! It is I, your Solar, and deeefinitely not a shapeshifter disguised as him down to his scent! I need you to play dead for me. Yes, that's right, lie down prone. Good boy! Now close your eyes for just a minute..."

    Unbreakable Defining Intimacies are as much a weakness as a strength. Probably works on bound demons too...
    Well the second option wouldn't work for our group. The devs have said it's up to the ST to decide if a simple disguise is enough to fool a familiar with a mystic bond. I'm of the opinion that it's not. Since I'm the ST, trying to fool the familiar with a disguise will end up with you getting eaten.

    As for the first option, it's something you could try. However, the familiar has absolute loyalty, so it's not going to stand by while you attack it's master. Your best bet would be to try and deceive it in a way that you're not calling it's loyalty into question. Something like convincing the Tyrant Lizard you just saw a herd of plump mountain goats on the other side of the hill, then attack the master while the familiar goes looking for a meal.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrilliantRain
    replied
    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru View Post
    Why make it an Intimacy if it's not intended to be used with the socially system?

    Edit: Eating a bound demon and taking on its intimacy of loyalty seems like a good way to get close to a sorcerer...who will be very surprised indeed when you start disobeying orders and eating him.
    I had no objections to leveraging it the first way. I was just thinking that you might not be able to pretend to be the familiar's master effectively, even if you had stolen their shape.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru View Post
    And Tyrant Lizards are many things, but...well, bright is not usually one of them.
    That strikes me as a far stronger argument against being able to reach a tyrant lizard through sophisticated and occasionally convoluted arguments. I'll reserve full judgement for social interaction with animals until we see what kinds of powers Lunars might have for it*, but for the time being I find any argument based on acting as though these things have comprehension and communication comparable to those of a human to be spurious.

    Strictly speaking, you're not incorrect about Intimacies in principle, but I think context and common sense need to be applied, and those would generally preclude animals being susceptible to complex reasoning.

    I think the biggest risk that a Defining Intimacy brings to a familiar tyrant lizard is that it has been instilled with a will to act that can take priority over its survival instinct. I don't think it's an explicit part of the familiar or animal training rules, but I think it's reasonable to assume that, barring such an Intimacy, even being a familiar doesn't change the fact that a badly injured animal, even a tyrant lizard, will almost always elect to retreat.

    If a Solar orders a tyrant lizard with a Defining Intimacy to fight a Lunar, then its danger seems far more likely to be that the thing will be willing to fight a damn Lunar, and will continue doing so even past the point that the Lunar (in human form) punches it in the face and breaks its damn jaw.

    I'm all for diverse options for handling obstacles and challenges, but there is a reasonable limit, and I think that being able to talk down or around a raging dinosaur that a supernally powerful trainer has tamed, raised up, and commanded to attack you falls under it. Intimidating the thing to a degree that the command has difficulty spurring it over works. Magically instilling a state of calm, sure. Turning into the same animal of a sexually compatible type and putting its mind on something else? Well, it has mythic precedent. Not so much convincing it that the best interests of its master are best met by not following the command, I should think.

    * Although I honestly expect a lot of such things to be focused, limited and rather primal, rather than being able to hold a conversation.

    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru
    You can use social influence in combat this edition. Heck, Lunars have a couple tricks for saying things to the Tyrant Lizard that it's boss can't understand.


    Perhaps, but under the assumption that a lot of things that could be said to try and manipulate its Tie won't make sense to it, I'd imagine that a lot of countermeasures to a Defining Intimacy require another, conflicting Defining Intimacy, and building that up from nothing under combat conditions would be hard enough even with a person. With an animal? Well, it's not outside the realms of possibility that you're carrying something extremely tasty, buuuutt…

    Now, there may still be some Charms that function through a mechanism of treating a target, even an animal, as though it has a strong Intimacy, and that may be valid, but it's more a matter of Lunar magic than effectively leveraging the social system.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wise Old Guru
    replied
    Be the Solar convincingly enough to fool the Tyrant Lizard. Give it conflicting orders-a Tyrant Lizard who won't listen to "STOP!" or "Stand down!" yelled in the Boss' voice isn't a great familiar!

    As a Lunar, it's not always about overwhelming force-there's no obligation to fight with honor if somebody's just sicced a Tyrant Lizard on you!

    You can use social influence in combat this edition. Heck, Lunars have a couple tricks for saying things to the Tyrant Lizard that it's boss can't understand. You don't need to win the whole fight that way, but if you can buy yourself a round or put your opponent in a disadvantageous position before you go in for the kill, why not?

    Edit: the Defining Loyalty intimacy is the one you USE, it's the only one you likely know the beast has anyway-who does checks to learn intimacies on a T Rex?

    Leave a comment:


  • Calboon
    replied
    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru View Post

    Yeah, but intimacies cut both ways. My love for my family might protect me from getting tricked into hurting them...but it makes me a lot easier to talk into doing something if you threaten them or if you convince me helping you will help them. Talking a demon bound to guard a sorcerer's hoard into helping you get into the hoard won't work...but preying upon it's loyalty to get it to accept a gift for addition to the hoard is a good way to smuggle in a bomb or a teleporter or something. Mechanics are best when they open story options, not just shut 'em down.

    And Tyrant Lizards are many things, but...well, bright is not usually one of them.
    Like you keep bringing up demons and I feel you are muddying the waters just a bit.

    A solar has just told their pet tyrant lizard to eat you. What social influence do you feel you can do with the defining intimacy in place to not having to fight the tyrant lizard.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wise Old Guru
    replied
    Originally posted by Calboon View Post
    Its a defining intimacy primarily to STOP people from using the social system on the pet. If a solar tells its tyrant lizard to eat you, you are not talking your way out of it.
    Yeah, but intimacies cut both ways. My love for my family might protect me from getting tricked into hurting them...but it makes me a lot easier to talk into doing something if you threaten them or if you convince me helping you will help them. Talking a demon bound to guard a sorcerer's hoard into helping you get into the hoard won't work...but preying upon it's loyalty to get it to accept a gift for addition to the hoard is a good way to smuggle in a bomb or a teleporter or something. Mechanics are best when they open story options, not just shut 'em down.

    And Tyrant Lizards are many things, but...well, bright is not usually one of them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Calboon
    replied
    Originally posted by Wise Old Guru View Post
    Why make it an Intimacy if it's not intended to be used with the socially system?

    Edit: Eating a bound demon and taking on its intimacy of loyalty seems like a good way to get close to a sorcerer...who will be very surprised indeed when you start disobeying orders and eating him.
    Its a defining intimacy primarily to STOP people from using the social system on the pet. If a solar tells its tyrant lizard to eat you, you are not talking your way out of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wise Old Guru
    replied
    Why make it an Intimacy if it's not intended to be used with the socially system?

    Edit: Eating a bound demon and taking on its intimacy of loyalty seems like a good way to get close to a sorcerer...who will be very surprised indeed when you start disobeying orders and eating him.
    Last edited by Wise Old Guru; 09-23-2018, 05:58 PM.

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