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  • Gay arranged marriages

    Gay... arranged... marriages

    The way I see it, there are two ways this can work
    A) They're all love marriages
    Which would make them rather looked down on and I doubt Vancey would do that

    B) They're done whenever it's convenient for the house
    Which means there's a huge amount of heterosexual people forced into gay marriages... which is hilarious

  • #2
    Lion Hamster you are forgetting a few key points here. 1) Marraiges in Dynastic Society are about alliances first and foremost. 2) Neomah and other methods do exist for homosexual couples to have children from the marriage. 3) A Dragonblood CAN have sufficent agency to buck family arrangements, provided that during their Grand Tour they have done something of note to give them the cache within the House to do so. 4) Homosexuality has zero stigma in DB society provided the couple avails themselves to point 2.

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    • #3
      It wouldnt be an arranged one likely, but I do still want to see Mnemon and Ejava get married

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Saipjas View Post
        Lion Hamster you are forgetting a few key points here. 1) Marraiges in Dynastic Society are about alliances first and foremost. 2) Neomah and other methods do exist for homosexual couples to have children from the marriage. 3) A Dragonblood CAN have sufficent agency to buck family arrangements, provided that during their Grand Tour they have done something of note to give them the cache within the House to do so. 4) Homosexuality has zero stigma in DB society provided the couple avails themselves to point 2.
        1) And children, dragonblooded are valuable

        2) That's entirely irrelevant and I know that (Though that is considered questionable cause sorcerers and demons are spoopy)

        3) They can, they won't always

        4) There are still heterosexual people

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        • #5
          Actually I just realized something Lion Hamster have you read the manuscript for WFHW? If not this may be an issue where you are coming from this with incomplete knowledge since there is an entire entry covering sexuality and marriage and particular how Same sex marraiges are handled and how they are formed. While I doubt that a same sex arranged marriage happens often, I could see it if for instance both Houses have two homosexual children of matching gender, but pair them up with the understanding that they will find a way to produce a child.

          Edit: turning to sorcery for childbirth in 3e does not have stigma so that is something significant.
          Last edited by Saipjas; 07-20-2018, 12:56 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Saipjas View Post
            Actually I just realized something Lion Hamster have you read the manuscript for WFHW? If not this may be an issue where you are coming from this with incomplete knowledge since there is an entire entry covering sexuality and marriage and particular how Same sex marraiges are handled and how they are formed. While I doubt that a same sex arranged marriage happens often, I could see it if for instance both Houses have two homosexual children of matching gender, but pair them up with the understanding that they will find a way to produce a child.

            Edit: turning to sorcery for childbirth in 3e does not have stigma so that is something significant.
            Personally, i don't get why this change in 3e happened. Dragon blooded don't marry for love. They do it for status and to produce more dragon blooded children. They can love whomever they want and you have dragon blooded like les kadaal who still have affairs with same sex partners while being married.

            This, the changes to how pregnancy work, and the new breeding merit really annoy me. It's a bunch of minor changes that just alter the setting unnecessarily.

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            • #7
              Epimetheus I am not a dev nor can I speak for them, but I disagree with you on this count. Progenitive essence finally puts a stake in the damn stupid notion of “Dragonblooded breeding camps” that permeated a lot of 2e discussions. Furthermore, the new breeding merit from what I can tell is to prevent mechanical must haves (in the optimization and incentive sense) such as the previous incarnation. Finally, if Dragonblooded society IS being pragmatic, and there is no discernible difference in the metaphysical nature of a child born of sorcery from one not, then why the heck wouldn’t they use it?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                Personally, i don't get why this change in 3e happened.
                Then I’ll be happy to explain!

                The Dragon-Blooded play venue is the primary “social play” venue of Exalted; just as people who want to play “typical fantasy” in Exalted are most likely to choose Solars, people who want to play games centered around intrigue, politics, and intrigue- and politics-flavored social drama are most likely to play Dragon-Blooded. Given the large number of LGBT players who want to see their own lives reflected in the game, and given the recent wave of gay marriage being legalized in real life, the prospect of leaving gay marriage out of our primary social venue in our notoriously LGBT friendly fantasy game felt churlish and distasteful.

                So, there. Now you can’t say you don’t get why this change in 3e happened anymore.

                Unless that’s not what you meant. If you meant you did get it, but just didn’t agree, then I suppose you could keep saying that. But in that case you should say that.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Saipjas View Post
                  Epimetheus I am not a dev nor can I speak for them, but I disagree with you on this count. Progenitive essence finally puts a stake in the damn stupid notion of “Dragonblooded breeding camps” that permeated a lot of 2e discussions. Furthermore, the new breeding merit from what I can tell is to prevent mechanical must haves (in the optimization and incentive sense) such as the previous incarnation. Finally, if Dragonblooded society IS being pragmatic, and there is no discernible difference in the metaphysical nature of a child born of sorcery from one not, then why the heck wouldn’t they use it?
                  First, progenitive essence is dumb. It means lookshy doesn't work. The previous edition put 5-7 year limitations on it. That was more than good enough. Second the new breeding merit is dumb, because while it shouldn't have charm incentives, it should show that there is a difference between breeding. The merit is limited to a marriage flaw, when it would not only be a status flaw in the realm, but also when different dragon blooded of the same family used to have different levels of breeding. Moreover, breeding effects how often children exalt. Finally, you can't have a situation where sorcerers are inherently distrusted, while being perfectly fine with sorcerered children. Ones whom most Dragon Blooded wouldn't even trust as being dragon blooded in a situation where they mistrust sorcerers. Either sorcery is fine or dragon blooded children produced with it are seen as a huge stigma

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                    Then I’ll be happy to explain!

                    The Dragon-Blooded play venue is the primary “social play” venue of Exalted; just as people who want to play “typical fantasy” in Exalted are most likely to choose Solars, people who want to play games centered around intrigue, politics, and intrigue- and politics-flavored social drama are most likely to play Dragon-Blooded. Given the large number of LGBT players who want to see their own lives reflected in the game, and given the recent wave of gay marriage being legalized in real life, the prospect of leaving gay marriage out of our primary social venue in our notoriously LGBT friendly fantasy game felt churlish and distasteful.

                    So, there. Now you can’t say you don’t get why this change in 3e happened anymore.

                    Unless that’s not what you meant. If you meant you did get it, but just didn’t agree, then I suppose you could keep saying that. But in that case you should say that.
                    I hate having to say this before topics like this, but yeah, I am gay and I still don't agree. I thought the old system made sense. Hardship happens and nobles had to suffer a lot for there status. To wave it away, kind of just disrupts the setting and makes characters like Les Kadaal look pointless. You could still pretty much do whatever you want as a dragonblooded but you still had to marry out obligation. Most of the Dragon Blooded marriages are emphasized as being loveless, so I don't see why this exception exists without any stigma.

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                    • #11
                      @Epimethus I see no reason why progenitive essence makes lookshy not work, might need to unpack your reasoning behind that one. The point of marriage and exaltation is covered, while not in the merit itself the manuscript does say that children from parents of strong bloodlines have a 4/5 chance of exaltation versus parents of average bloodlines having a 1/2 chance for their children to exalt. The stigma against sorcerers is because sorcery removes you in many ways from society. Sorcerers are distrusted because of that removal versus the results of said sorcery. People are distrustful of the end products of sorcery, just the people who use it. This has happened many times in human history even today.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Saipjas View Post
                        @Epimethus I see no reason why progenitive essence makes lookshy not work, might need to unpack your reasoning behind that one. The point of marriage and exaltation is covered, while not in the merit itself the manuscript does say that children from parents of strong bloodlines have a 4/5 chance of exaltation versus parents of average bloodlines having a 1/2 chance for their children to exalt. The stigma against sorcerers is because sorcery removes you in many ways from society. Sorcerers are distrusted because of that removal versus the results of said sorcery. People are distrustful of the end products of sorcery, just the people who use it. This has happened many times in human history even today.
                        The problem with progenitive essence is that it means that you won't get any exalts unless you wait. Full stop that's what the book implies. Yet lookshy has children in mass sometimes breaking even the 5-7 rule as the need to have more soldiers increase. That's basically saying that lookshy should have no exalted at this point in time because they wasted it over time. The book doesn't at all mention what happens when you mix breeding or get involved with mortals or thinblooded. And sorcerers and their sorcery is distrusted. They even have stories about a sorcerer getting killed by his demons, when that's not a thing that can happen. The distrust is on multiple levels and while sorcerers and sorceries are still used they are inherently distrusted. So why would their products not be distrusted as well?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                          The problem with progenitive essence is that it means that you won't get any exalts unless you wait. Full stop that's what the book implies. Yet lookshy has children in mass sometimes breaking even the 5-7 rule as the need to have more soldiers increase. That's basically saying that lookshy should have no exalted at this point in time because they wasted it over time. The book doesn't at all mention what happens when you mix breeding or get involved with mortals or thinblooded. And sorcerers and their sorcery is distrusted. They even have stories about a sorcerer getting killed by his demons, when that's not a thing that can happen. The distrust is on multiple levels and while sorcerers and sorceries are still used they are inherently distrusted. So why would their products not be distrusted as well?
                          The answer is because their products are too damn useful not to, Dragonblooded are pragmatic like that. Why have an entire school dedicated to the training of new sorcerers if it is that distrusted as you suggest? As for lookshy the 3e iteration makes no mention of children in mass, furthermore Lookshy welcomes literally all outcaste DBs into its ranks, allowing new blood to continually flow into it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                            The problem with progenitive essence is that it means that you won't get any exalts unless you wait. Full stop that's what the book implies. Yet lookshy has children in mass sometimes breaking even the 5-7 rule as the need to have more soldiers increase. That's basically saying that lookshy should have no exalted at this point in time because they wasted it over time. The book doesn't at all mention what happens when you mix breeding or get involved with mortals or thinblooded. And sorcerers and their sorcery is distrusted. They even have stories about a sorcerer getting killed by his demons, when that's not a thing that can happen. The distrust is on multiple levels and while sorcerers and sorceries are still used they are inherently distrusted. So why would their products not be distrusted as well?
                            No it does point out that DBs still occasionally happen even if you don't wait for a full buildup of the essence.* You just have significantly better odds on a 10 year build than you do if you didn't even wait a year.

                            As an analogy, there was a craft system in a rhythm game I played, which name escapes me, in order to make new gear you needed the materials then you had to throw xp into it. The higher the xp total you threw into the item the better odds you had of actually getting the item as opposed to nothing. You could go in and throw only 10xp at the stuff, but the odds rarely got to whole percentages whereas throwing a few hundred would garuantee you the item. Progentetive essence is like that only assume there's a cap lower than 100% on the buildup.

                            *The lovely dynastic slur of an exalt being the leftovers.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Saipjas View Post

                              The answer is because their products are too damn useful not to, Dragonblooded are pragmatic like that. Why have an entire school dedicated to the training of new sorcerers if it is that distrusted as you suggest? As for lookshy the 3e iteration makes no mention of children in mass, furthermore Lookshy welcomes literally all outcaste DBs into its ranks, allowing new blood to continually flow into it.
                              That is true, but they and their sorcerous abilities still carry some stigma. A child made from those magics would have to face some stigma even if there's nothing physically or metaphysically different from everyone else. It mentions that lookshian Dragon blooded have more kids in shorter intervals because they don't have the luxury of saving up their breeding. This is in complete counter from the rules of progenitive essence.

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