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  • #16
    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
    That is true, but they and their sorcerous abilities still carry some stigma. A child made from those magics would have to face some stigma even if there's nothing physically or metaphysically different from everyone else. It mentions that lookshian Dragon blooded have more kids in shorter intervals because they don't have the luxury of saving up their breeding. This is in complete counter from the rules of progenitive essence.
    No, it just means they don’t get a full charge and have to play the odds, though my reading of it is that they start bearing children at age 18, not that the interval is less, just the start date is roughly 5-10 years further along than in the Realm, and they don’t give a rats ass if you are with a noble or an outcaste (from my reading).

    As to sorcery, we will have to agree to disagree about the implications of the distrust of sorcerers, I find there are sufficent historical examples similar enough here in Earth to be absolutely ok with a similar phenomenon related to how sorcery works in the Realm.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Saipjas View Post

      No, it just means they don’t get a full charge and have to play the odds, though my reading of it is that they start bearing children at age 18, not that the interval is less, just the start date is roughly 5-10 years further along than in the Realm, and they don’t give a rats ass if you are with a noble or an outcaste (from my reading).

      As to sorcery, we will have to agree to disagree about the implications of the distrust of sorcerers, I find there are sufficent historical examples similar enough here in Earth to be absolutely ok with a similar phenomenon related to how sorcery works in the Realm.
      I was referring to the required 10-12 years between children. And leftover children, it seems I was wrong, they can exalt but the chance is low. I just felt it was unnecessary to the normal 5-7 years it used to be.

      My problem is that we aren't talking about Earth, we're talking about the Realm, which has an inherent distrust of sorcery. Even if they still take advantage of it, that is not a social stigma that goes away.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

        I was referring to the required 10-12 years between children. And leftover children, it seems I was wrong, they can exalt but the chance is low. I just felt it was unnecessary to the normal 5-7 years it used to be.

        My problem is that we aren't talking about Earth, we're talking about the Realm, which has an inherent distrust of sorcery. Even if they still take advantage of it, that is not a social stigma that goes away.
        My point with the Earth parallel is that these are stories about humans (Exalted though the may be). Thus I find it sufficient to be able to draw on historical anthologies to explain how DB society can reconcile these seemly contradictions within their societal structure. Here is a different way to frame it outside of procreation, if Dynasts distrusted sorcery to the extent you assert, then there would be significant social pressure to never commission sorcerous workings. Crops enhanced via sorcerous workings or animals bred/enhanced via sorcery should also be distrusted. None of that is true, the advantages of sorcery outweigh it too much. While DB society is worried about a sorcerer either getting too prideful and biting off more than they can chew, or trying to amass too much power, they can not deny the power sorcery And just and important this edition Sorcerous Workings bring.
        Last edited by Saipjas; 07-20-2018, 03:42 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

          I was referring to the required 10-12 years between children. And leftover children, it seems I was wrong, they can exalt but the chance is low. I just felt it was unnecessary to the normal 5-7 years it used to be.

          My problem is that we aren't talking about Earth, we're talking about the Realm, which has an inherent distrust of sorcery. Even if they still take advantage of it, that is not a social stigma that goes away.
          Yeah, but that's why invoking the precedent of Rawar isn't the norm. Sorcerers are looked at warily, but Mnemom and Ragara (amongst unnamed others) were had by the empress via sorcery so it is considered viable. This doesn't mean people trust sorcerers just that in those cases they would stack the deck by only dealing with ones that have the most trust. Think of it like needing drugs, there are always potential risks, but that's why you're supposed to acquire opiates via perscription as opposed to some dude in an alley.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Saipjas View Post

            Edit: turning to sorcery for childbirth in 3e does not have stigma so that is something significant.
            Turning to sorcery doesn't have a stigma if at least one of the partners is trans. That's an important distinction.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
              It means lookshy doesn't work.
              Lookshy never made sense. The statement "they're going for number rather than power" never made sense, because the factors behind likelihood of being Exalted and strength of resulting Exalt were exactly the same. And one can't even go for an idea that what it meant was that they sent the men out to shotgun their seed into as many women as possible to play the odds because, well, no part of their society was ever portrayed that way.

              Now, the idea that Lookshy emphasizes numbers over strong bloodlines does make sense when it refers to the fact that they aggressively recruit outcastes and adopt or marry them straight into their family, giving them full rights and privileges, as opposed to the Scarlet Dynasty policy of filtering them into Imperial service and otherwise giving marriage to them a wide berth.

              Originally posted by Epimetheus
              makes characters like Les Kadaal look pointless


              Kes has a point, because there's not a man that he's in love with. Regardless of his sexuality, I don't think any Edition has portrayed him as romantically loving a man as much as he platonically loves Szaya.

              Something to keep in mind about the subject; most gay people in the Scarlet Dynasty still marry members of the opposite sex, because most Dynastic marriages are not based on love, and it seems to generally be perceived as easier to produce children.

              Gay Dynasts only marry one another when they're both in love, and willing to defy their families (or in a strong position to negotiate on their own terms). That doesn't seem to be an uncommon occurrence, but it's not the default.

              I mean, we have a signature character that is in a loveless Dynastic marriage and is having an affair with another man.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                The merit is limited to a marriage flaw, when it would not only be a status flaw in the realm
                Why? Why do you want that.

                Originally posted by Epimetheus
                but also when different dragon blooded of the same family used to have different levels of breeding.
                This sentence fragment doesn't really make sense with respect to what came right before it.

                Originally posted by Epimetheus
                The book doesn't at all mention what happens when you mix breeding or get involved with mortals or thinblooded.


                It doesn't directly, but it's not hard to infer from the descriptions of their society and the Merits: most Dragon Blooded have bloodlines* of regular strength, indicating that their ancestry includes a decent number of leftover children, outcastes and mortals (or at least those without Dragon Blooded pedigree), meaning their own children have odds of about fifty-fifty if they husband their progenitive Essence. The strength of such a bloodline can shift up or down depending on how it exactly matches up to another normal-strength person's ancestry, the details of which can probably be assumed to be too complex to be worth elaborating on, and are mostly the province of stodgy older family members exhaustively perusing genealogies and aggressively negotiating on minute details. A normal bloodline crossed with a strong one (ancestry largely exclusive to strong-blooded Exalted) will probably have odds somewhere between fifty-fifty and 80%, and keep going in that direction as the generations are continuously crossed with strong blood; reverse the direction in the case of Thin-blooded.

                * Note: the book hardly uses the term breeding, with preference for bloodline, and I think that's preferable on several counts.


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                • #23
                  Sorry for the out of order quotes.

                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                  Why? Why do you want that.
                  Because that's what it is. If you're an outcaste, or a lookshian and you are in the realm you are already going to have social issues. It's a pretty severe flaw for Realm dragon blooded, one that gives you issues with your peers. I get that having a social penalty would be unfortunate for an outcaste pc in the realm but that's what the Realm's belittlement of dragon blooded who aren't them would be like. You'd constantly have to deal with a bunch of shit because you aren't one of them. That wouldn't extend to anyone who's not a dragon blooded in the realm because of the way immaculate order works. However, the flaw I feel is a little weak for what being thinblooded in the realm means. Especially those who are outsiders.


                  This sentence fragment doesn't really make sense with respect to what came right before it.
                  My point was, that in previous editions, even if you did exalt two children of the same family weren't always on the same level. I think the new merit takes some of those issues away.

                  Also, I suppose my questions about how dragonblooded repoduction works is to understand how to model places like lookshy and if they how often they have to deal with dragonblooded who don't produce any exalts.


                  Something to keep in mind about the subject; most gay people in the Scarlet Dynasty still marry members of the opposite sex, because most Dynastic marriages are not based on love, and it seems to generally be perceived as easier to produce children.
                  I suppose I wish it was clearer on how rare it is. Because the book kind of glossed over it a bit.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    Something to keep in mind about the subject; most gay people in the Scarlet Dynasty still marry members of the opposite sex, because most Dynastic marriages are not based on love, and it seems to generally be perceived as easier to produce children.

                    Gay Dynasts only marry one another when they're both in love, and willing to defy their families (or in a strong position to negotiate on their own terms). That doesn't seem to be an uncommon occurrence, but it's not the default.

                    Also, I imagine being gay gives you a slightly better position at the bargaining table when you're going for a heterosexual marriage: the other House can be absolutely sure that you're not going to squander your progenitive Essence on some youthful indiscretion or because you were too dumb to take your maiden tea before going to that Cynis orgy.

                    This, coupled with the fact that you can just... have a normal relationship with your lover while being married, makes me think that a lot of gay people simply don't bother expending political capital on pushing for marriage with the person they like, because why bother? Unless you're absolutely sure they are The Best, you might just get bored with them after a decade or two, which is not that much time by Dragon-Blooded standards, and then you're stuck in a similarly unhappy marriage as you would have been if you just went with whoever your House wanted for you except your matriarch is sure as hell going to let you know that she pulled a lot of strings and sacrificed so much for your happiness so you better repay that kindness you ungrateful little shit at every. family. dinner.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lion Hamster View Post
                      B) They're done whenever it's convenient for the house
                      Which means there's a huge amount of heterosexual people forced into gay marriages... which is hilarious
                      Okay a major thing here. I don't think you understand how arranged marriages work. A person in an arranged marriage is still supposed to choose their partner it's just that their courtships prior to that are controlled by their respective families so all adding gay marriage does to that set-up is give members of the same sex a chance (not necessarily an equal one) at the courtship process.

                      So not a huge amount because matchmaking is more complicated than assigning breeding pairs and locking them in a room together but there's got to be some heterosexual people who are in gay marriages for the status and security that their partner provides etc.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                        Okay a major thing here. I don't think you understand how arranged marriages work. A person in an arranged marriage is still supposed to choose their partner it's just that their courtships prior to that are controlled by their respective families so all adding gay marriage does to that set-up is give members of the same sex a chance (not necessarily an equal one) at the courtship process.

                        So not a huge amount because matchmaking is more complicated than assigning breeding pairs and locking them in a room together but there's got to be some heterosexual people who are in gay marriages for the status and security that their partner provides etc.
                        I can't imagine it would be the norm without extenuating factors allowing it. You are still expected to make sure you don't produce children outside of the marriage.

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                        • #27
                          ...Nothing I said indicated it was the norm.


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                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=Epimetheus;n1237075
                            If you're an outcaste, or a lookshian and you are in the realm you are already going to have social issues.[/quote]

                            I think those are evident enough in the parts of the book that go into detail on how the Realm responds to outcastes and foreigners that making it a part of the Merit and Flaw is both unnecessary, and the wrong place for it.

                            Originally posted by Epimetheus
                            It's a pretty severe flaw for Realm dragon blooded, one that gives you issues with your peers.
                            Ehhh; it seems to me like the kind of thing that becomes irrelevant to anything besides marriage considerations past the point that you've actually managed to Exalt. Sure, the book describes the kind of stigma that leftover children will face while still in school, but if you become Exalted then... it didn't matter.

                            I think it's all right for there to be more focus on one's achievements as an individual, and their gender.


                            Originally posted by Epimetheus
                            My point was, that in previous editions, even if you did exalt two children of the same family weren't always on the same level. I think the new merit takes some of those issues away.
                            When you say same family, do you mean Great House, or nuclear family?

                            Although either way, it's still... incorrect?

                            Originally posted by Epimetheus
                            Also, I suppose my questions about how dragonblooded repoduction works is to understand how to model places like lookshy and if they how often they have to deal with dragonblooded who don't produce any exalts.
                            Lookshy's write-up gives me an image of a society in which they don't place a huge stock in curating their bloodlines, because they make up for any resulting shortfall by freely incorporating outcastes from around the Scavenger Lands, and other parts of the Threshold. They still husband their progenitive Essence, but don't place the highest priority in matchmaking on people with a proven and as-close-as-possible to exclusive Exalted ancestry, which wouldn't help much anyway because so many of their ancestors would be people who were the first Exalted in generations.

                            Contrast with House Nellens, a Dragon Blooded clan of relatively humble origins that is actively cultivating a stronger bloodline, leading to them actively excluding people of weaker ancestry, even though their status means that their prospects are often limited to such people.

                            Lookshy needs Dragon Blooded now, so they'll take in whomever (even if those people having children will be best suited to waiting a couple of decades in between); they'll hardly ever get Exalted couples with an 80% success rate. Nellens was thinking in the long term and, prior to the disappearance of the Empress, did not feel so pressured, so they were willing to limit themselves to mortals from strong bloodlines (if Mnemon saves all of her progenitive Essence to have a child with a well-bred Exalt that did the same, and the child never Exalts, they've still got a very good bloodline) and the occasional well-bred Exalt that they manage to snatch, so that they can work towards a situation in which they have a bloc of scions with the 80% success rate.

                            Originally posted by Epimetheus
                            I suppose I wish it was clearer on how rare it is. Because the book kind of glossed over it a bit.
                            I dunno; it describes the conditions of marriage for love, and describes most gay marriage as being for love, it seems clear enough.

                            Also the point it makes about how when the marriage is same-sex, the hierarchy of it becomes a matter of age rather than gender, so for women that presents its own kinds of obstacles. Like I said in my analysis thread, it's got to be annoying for a mother and House matriarch to make plans around a particular daughter and her offspring, only for her to insist that she wants to marry an older women (even if they're only separated by a year or so), meaning that she falls under the authority of another House and her children will have a different name.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                              Ehhh; it seems to me like the kind of thing that becomes irrelevant to anything besides marriage considerations past the point that you've actually managed to Exalt. Sure, the book describes the kind of stigma that leftover children will face while still in school, but if you become Exalted then... it didn't matter.

                              I think it's all right for there to be more focus on one's achievements as an individual, and their gender.
                              Except it's not, the book goes out of it's way to indicate how superior realm dragon blooded feel they are compared to Outcastes and lookshians and the stigma of being a leftover child doesn't go away after they exalt. It lessens but it'll never go away.


                              When you say same family, do you mean Great House, or nuclear family?

                              Although either way, it's still... incorrect?
                              I mean same family because breeding was on a scale. Two dragon blooded could be from the same family and one could have had 5 the other 1. Which just had it's own set of implications.


                              I dunno; it describes the conditions of marriage for love, and describes most gay marriage as being for love, it seems clear enough.
                              Hmm, I suppose that is true.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                                Except it's not, the book goes out of it's way to indicate how superior realm dragon blooded feel they are compared to Outcastes and lookshians and the stigma of being a leftover child doesn't go away after they exalt.
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