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  • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
    Sterility is almost nonexistent for dragon-blooded
    I'm not sure about that, unless it's a reflection on the commonality of people being unable to conceive children in general (information that I'll have to look into).

    They might be supernaturally hardy, but that doesn't proof them against congenital defects and disorders; less now than it ever might have, considering some example characters.

    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    aren't allowed to make use of Sorcery to have children. They have no choice but to adopt or use surrogate parents (but would likely find that somewhat distasteful). It's a bit unfair but as Isator pointed out, religion is often oppressive and stupid.
    Don't forget that it's not legally prohibited or anything; it's an extension of social distrust of and apprehension about sorcery. I imagine that in many cases, the people that would actually benefit from it are the ones with the aversion; that the perspective that has been conditioned in them for their whole lives is their foremost obstacle, more than how it would be reflected in their peers.

    It's not a specifically religious thing either.


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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    • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

      At the very least, gay Dragon Blooded couples, where both partners are of the same sex and gender, can't have children and aren't allowed to make use of Sorcery to have children. They have no choice but to adopt or use surrogate parents (but would likely find that somewhat distasteful). It's a bit unfair but as Isator pointed out, religion is often oppressive and stupid.
      It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the fact that the Realm has and will always be a eugenics based society. I mean you can flower it up with the terms like "cultivate bloodlines" but lets just be honest. It's fucking eugenics because dragon blooded need to reproduce with other dragon blooded to make as many dragon blooded as they can. The entire point of the the religion is to deify dragon blooded and to give them unquestionable control of the realm. Dragon Blooded have also always been allowed to be gay but they still had an obligation to their FAMILY, to reproduce. I can't imagine that there are many gay dragon blooded couples because it's not a big deal. Pop out a child every 12-20 years to keep your grandmother happy then do whatever you want.

      In the manuscript, there is also a part about how, families distrust out of family aspect castes, even though it's random. A lot of the dragon-blooded themselves, have build up preconceived notions about a lot of aspects which are flat out wrong about their own exaltation.
      Last edited by Epimetheus; 07-24-2018, 09:28 PM.

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      • ...Here's my take.

        Grandma Cynis would of course prefer that you get married and have babies the old-fashioned way.

        But if you're sterile, or ace, or gay, or can't have kids in some other way, she'd be okay with you adopting a kid, if you can get one from a decent bloodline. It's easier to adopt a child who MIGHT exalt than to adopt a full-fledged Dragonblood...and there's always a risk the kids don't exalt anyway. Taking the opportunity to add a descendant of a well-bred outcaste to your family has its advantages, and there are plenty of folks Grandma Cynis would like to make alliances with who would LOVE to give their kids the opportunity to be raised as members of the Dynasty.

        If there's no decently qualified adoption candidates out there, or if you insist you really want the kids to be your own flesh and blood...well, then Grandma Cynis might be okay with you using sorcery, or a demon, but she's privately going to be concerned and keep a close eye on your child to make sure it doesn't turn out...off. Botches on Shaping rolls happen, after all, and you never know where that Neomah's been. If nothing is funny after a decade or two, then fine, but Granny Cynis might not give her best artifact toys or positions of serious authority to your demon-sculpted baby until she's pretty sure the kid is turning out okay.


        So I'm making God-Kicking Boot, an Exalted webcomic, now. Updates on Sundays. Full-color, mediocre but slowly improving art. It's a thing.

        The absence of a monument can, in its own way, be something of a monument also.
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        • Originally posted by Wise Old Guru View Post
          ...Here's my take.

          Grandma Cynis would of course prefer that you get married and have babies the old-fashioned way.

          But if you're sterile, or ace, or gay, or can't have kids in some other way, she'd be okay with you adopting a kid, if you can get one from a decent bloodline. It's easier to adopt a child who MIGHT exalt than to adopt a full-fledged Dragonblood...and there's always a risk the kids don't exalt anyway. Taking the opportunity to add a descendant of a well-bred outcaste to your family has its advantages, and there are plenty of folks Grandma Cynis would like to make alliances with who would LOVE to give their kids the opportunity to be raised as members of the Dynasty.

          If there's no decently qualified adoption candidates out there, or if you insist you really want the kids to be your own flesh and blood...well, then Grandma Cynis might be okay with you using sorcery, or a demon, but she's privately going to be concerned and keep a close eye on your child to make sure it doesn't turn out...off. Botches on Shaping rolls happen, after all, and you never know where that Neomah's been. If nothing is funny after a decade or two, then fine, but Granny Cynis might not give her best artifact toys or positions of serious authority to your demon-sculpted baby until she's pretty sure the kid is turning out okay.
          I really like this take, it gives it the realistic and proper context for who would be the decision maker (or influencer) on the issue.

          I want Grandma Cynis to weigh in on a lot more of this whole design. Like explaining how you sort out each of those options that become children and how each stipend assigned gets them their school placements or the like. Maybe a Great-Grandma Cynis to cover the many and varied results

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          • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
            dragon blooded need to reproduce with other dragon blooded to make as many dragon blooded as they can.
            Well, strictly speaking, bloodlines need to be matched with bloodlines; the Exalted of the Scarlet Dynasty will vastly prefer the unexalted of the Scarlet Dynasty who were born from their parents husbanding their Essence until it was maximized over somebody whose last discernible Exalted ancestor was back when there was a Shogun.

            I would propose that two mortal children of Exalted with the Well-Bred Merit that were born from maximized progenitive Essence have better odds of creating a decent number of Exalted children than the majority of outcastes do.

            Originally posted by Wise Old Guru
            It's easier to adopt a child who MIGHT exalt than to adopt a full-fledged Dragonblood


            I wonder... it might depend a bit on which is more common, relatively young Dynastic mothers dying, or minor patricians Exalting.

            Mind, one thing that is not as far forward in my mind is the reference to children that were unwanted by their parents; I would suppose that more than a few leftover children end up in situations in which their biological parents would sooner not have them, and assuming that the matriarch doesn't say tough luck and tell them that maybe doing without ivory back scratchers for a couple of decades while they bring their leftovers up will teach them a lesson in responsibility, the easiest thing is to reassign them immediately to a childless couple.

            Also in those cases where a man tries to get his illegitimate children under the umbrella of his original House.

            Originally posted by Wise Old Guru
            Taking the opportunity to add a descendant of a well-bred outcaste to your family has its advantages


            I think that's generally not allowed.


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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            • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

              Well, strictly speaking, bloodlines need to be matched with bloodlines; the Exalted of the Scarlet Dynasty will vastly prefer the unexalted of the Scarlet Dynasty who were born from their parents husbanding their Essence until it was maximized over somebody whose last discernible Exalted ancestor was back when there was a Shogun.

              I would propose that two mortal children of Exalted with the Well-Bred Merit that were born from maximized progenitive Essence have better odds of creating a decent number of Exalted children than the majority of outcastes do.
              Except, mortals can only lower exaltation chances compared to thin-blooded. Mortal children don't benefit at all from dragon blooded parents, except for the chance to birth a dragon blooded is higher than zero. A dragon blooded would still be better matched with another dragon blooded over a mortal dynast, unless that dragon blooded is a social outcaste with very little prospects and/or the family gains something else by that union.
              Last edited by Epimetheus; 07-24-2018, 10:17 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                Except, mortals can only lower exaltation chances compared to thin-blooded.
                That was true by the 1e/2e rules, sure. I'm fairly sure there's a 3e dev quote to the contrary, but I can't find it.

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                • Coming late in, but a couple things I can also think on the changes as they are:

                  1) There's the reason SLS noted in the first post. Not everyone will like it, but it's there for a reason. There is a not-zero set of folks I have seen grealty like it and I personally think it's neat for how mercenary it makes Dynasitc marriage.

                  2) Progenitive Essence is there in part to avoid Dragon-Blooded Breeding Camps. Which showed up....disturbingly often to be healthy and I'm all for just burning down it being optimal to treat women like broodmares for super soldiers. This isn't a whole "Vermismilitude of the setting" thing either. It's something that for some god-damned reason showed up a lot wihtout encoruagement by writers, and so just putting a bullet in teh ehad of the idea is probably a good idea. Especially doubly so since it's pretty difficut to square the incentive for it in a martirarchal Realm.

                  3) "Breeding levels" don't have to be eugenic, at least in a sense we understand it Victorian Age onward. Noble housels and bloodlines existed pretty much jsut fine wihtout there being eugenics, and you could have birthright and favored suns and all that fine. Folks who have played enough Crusader Kingdoms can see that one. It's just htat folks foten got ineffable things like "noble" or "kingly" to them, instead of elemental super powers. But hte cultivation of lineage due to some link to legacy tha tyou tap into for some power or merit isn't in itself something tha tneeds to be presented in a late 19th/early 20th century fashion. It wasn't always that way and need not be that way. I'm kind of reminded how folks freak out that Creation doesn' thave clear cause and effect, when no one thought htat's even how th eworld worked a century ago at times and most of human history.

                  4) Even if there were breeding levels which could be quantified in a eugenics-able sense, it might be just a good idea not to actually mechanize eugenics in your game system. Because again, verisimilitude shouldn't probably be something you prioritize if it makes your game sound like something out of the fever dreams of Galtan.

                  5) As said in the first page, Lookshy never made no god-damned sense and so the simple solution on its populaiton is to just ifnd another reason why it has its population in context of Progentive Essence, as it dind't make sense in the old system anyhow unles syouw ent into full on a mode like in point 2.


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                  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    On the subject of trans representation, did the prior Editions have anything to say about it one way or the other? It seems to me like in the past, they were more or less invisible. I'm hard pressed to think of a way of making it quite apparent that they exist in the setting, and are recognised, and that the recognition is not altogether negative, that doesn't seem very abrupt, but obviously I'm biased.

                    Certainly, if the idea of making changes to familiar characters in the setting was a concern (which... ehhhhh, wouldn't exactly bother me), it doesn't seem like something that should apply to figures that, in-character, are entirely fictional. Even if Danaa'd was still the name of the Elemental Dragon of Water (which I don't think it is), trans woman Immaculate Dragon Danaa'd is entirely fictional (while retaining significance for what it says about their society to include such a person in their mythology).

                    Suddenly, I'm remembering how, when I met Omicron, JimB and Sikker, and they were all playing Burn Legend, I came up with the idea of a hyena totem Lunar that was a trans woman. In retrospect, that was possibly a bit on the nose.
                    There was actually a couple what read to me as transphobic bits in the CoCD: Underwolrd the House of Succulant Tears basically was using forced sex change as punishment) and MoEP: Abyssals, which has a weird out of character thing talking on how Eye and Seven Despairs has a lot of female false idenitties says something of him being crazy.

                    There was an attempt to have a more positive instance of it in Scroll of Heroes, but the genders were swapped of characters involved ot make it heteronormative. Specifically, the Soulsteel Caste sig' had it so that his cover identity was a woman and the target he was casing was a man. They swapped the cover and case's genders in editting.

                    So yeah, Exalted hasn't had the best past on some of this stuff. 3e has been doing a lot better to reprsent more and represent not in a way that's pretty tone-deaf.
                    Last edited by Blaque; 07-25-2018, 01:31 AM.


                    And stuff.
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                    • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                      Except, mortals can only lower exaltation chances compared to thin-blooded. Mortal children don't benefit at all from dragon blooded parents, except for the chance to birth a dragon blooded is higher than zero. A dragon blooded would still be better matched with another dragon blooded over a mortal dynast, unless that dragon blooded is a social outcaste with very little prospects and/or the family gains something else by that union.
                      How do you explain the fact that House Nellens is written to specifically favour marriages to mortal Dynasts over foreign Exalted, in pursuit of their agenda to improve their bloodlines?


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                      • Having looked into it, I've found that figures for the modern day find around 5% of all heterosexual couples to deal with issues of unresolved infertility, while around 30% experience periods of involuntary childlessness for at least a year*. How much the latter might be dependent on interventions that are unsuitable or unavailable to the Dragon Blooded is not really something that I'm willing to put the time into, and obviously the figure doesn't translate directly to a specific subset of a population, but I feel as though it represents sufficient prevalence to be a concern to the Scarlet Dynasty.

                        I'll note that the subject of infertility has been written as a concern of the Realm since the beginning; the original Dragon Blooded book didn't act as though being infertile was unknown to the Exalted barring more direct sources of damage. I'll grant that in that context, it could have been read as more of a spectre that many laboured under, a source of apprehension and social disdain for every year that would pass in which one wouldn't or couldn't secure pregnancy with their spouse (even if it was still referred to in terms that made it apparent that it was a thing that happened).

                        I feel as though, given the new Edition placing a bit more emphasis and significance on adoption, that references to infertility might be a bit more explicit and literal. One can read into that however they wish; either as an expression of the neutral fact that infertility occurs naturally among some people, or as a suggestion that a particular strain of it happens to have distinct expression in the insufficiently diverse gene pool of the Scarlet Dynasty.

                        Incidentally, the statement about it being the result of damage from magical disease seems to be a bit outdated; as I recall, Third Edition has downgraded the Exalted immunity to disease from "they take everything no worse than a mildly bad cold" to "it won't manage to kill you"; that they still experience the full symptoms of any disease that they contract and do not magically purge from themselves, and those diseases can progress to the worst stages while still never being able to go so far as death. If a disease should happen to cause infertility, I would say that an Exalt would be susceptible to it (even if I imagine that the impact would be negligible among the Dragon Blooded).

                        Overall though, given how often references are made to infertility being a surprise and a concern to the Terrestrial Exalted, I find an assertion that they're basically immune to it to be quite wrong-headed.

                        * Which brings up the noteworthy point that issues with human fertility aren't necessarily indefinite, even without medical intervention; you get cases of couples that have distinct difficulty getting pregnant for an extended period, and then find themselves unexpectedly pregnant. Among other things, it creates instances in which some couples adopt first, and then have at least one biological child.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          How do you explain the fact that House Nellens is written to specifically favour marriages to mortal Dynasts over foreign Exalted, in pursuit of their agenda to improve their bloodlines?
                          I'd have to read it again. I don't remember any passage to support it and without hard facts I'd probably see it as nellens doing the best it can to form interdynast relations.

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                          • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                            I'd have to read it again. I don't remember any passage to support it and without hard facts I'd probably see it as nellens doing the best it can to form interdynast relations.
                            No, the agressive matchmaking policy is expressly to improve the House's rate of Exaltation.

                            Second paragraph of Social Standing under House Nellens, What Fire Has Wrought

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                            • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                              It does seem a little odd that the Realm would rather see a heterosexual couple not have children at all than have children using the same methods that a couple in which one of the members is transgender uses.

                              At the very least I imagine that if one of the members of the heterosexual couple is physically incapable of having children in the normal way due to injuries or sterility or what have you, there probably shouldn't be too much stigma on them for utilizing sorcery to have children.
                              I believe that a more pertinent question is whether the stigma of using Sorcery for chilc conception is less than that of conceiveing no child at all.

                              And in my view it obviously is.

                              You might get some shade for using Sorcery, but it is probably very much less than not passing on that Progenitive Essence.

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                              • You know, I get having a disagreement on a few points in some of the books. I have a couple myself, and am anticipating having a few others as some books come out. Not least because we've been in a period where there was room for a lot of speculation on the future, and I for one have developed some ideas and scenarios and characterisations that are liable to differ from what the books ultimately come out with, and that will be hard to let go of.

                                Not that I'm liable to argue that they're somehow superior to whatever the writers might come out with, as they're talented people whom I'm sure will make very well made things that I disagree on. My attachment and my reasoning might serve some of my own preferences and requirements, but that's all.

                                What I wouldn't do is say that the things that the writers have thoughtfully put together are incorrect, and have conversations based on asking people to provide a viable and consistent reasoning for them that I inordinately refuse to consider in any way valid.

                                Originally posted by TGUEIROS
                                in my view it obviously is


                                If it's so obvious, what's your perspective on people who don't see it, don't think it, and didn't write it into the book?


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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