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Heroes of the Unknown Legions: 3e Jadeborn

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    I like this idea. It gives them a way to do first age artifice (ie a lot of what magitech became) without being able to do stuff like cast Death of Obsidian Butterflies, which frankly just feels wrong, y'know?

    Maybe give them a charm tree with this geomancy charm at the bottom that gives more specific sorcerous effects that fit their aesthetic or something. Because we've seen from AOTR that raksha get "wyldcraft" to replicate sorcery, and this could be similar.
    Possibly, as they had several charms that duplicated specific uses of sorcery. Raksha have always been able to mimic sorcerous effects through wyld shaping (although specifics were nailed down in Graceful Wicked Masques).


    • #17
      Now, the other question is martial arts. Apparently, the reason they couldn't do it in past editions was that the person who wrote them thought raksha couldn't, and wanted them to be the same.

      But then it turned out raksha could learn MA.

      And honestly the more rigid, predictable essence flows of martial arts techniques do lend themselves to mountain folk quite well.


      • #18
        I´m really liking your ideas, guys, but I´m having a problem: my internet has been down for the last few days, and has been unable to post from the PC, and posting from the phone is just awful. Once the internet is working again (they are suppossed to fix it tomorrow morning, Monday at the latest), I will post my opinions about your posts and ideas


        • #19
          The other major mechanical issue to tackle: no more virtues.

          This isn't as big a task as you'd think, though, since in 3e Intimacies take part of the load Virtues bore, and otherwise (Essence) could step in for a lot of it. Since the virtues still exist in setting, I'd continue to make reference to them. Also, unlike the major changes Raksha might have, I think it's entirely appropriate for Jadeborn to have 'charm patterns', so as opposed to the major reworking raksha are hinted to eventually get, with more Path-like powers as opposed to shoehorning charms in everywhere, we'll stick with translating and adapting the existing Patterns.

          Just to pull up a sample...

          in 2e, the introductory Worker charm was Pillar of (Virtue). So let's try a speculative "replace the virtue with appropriate (Intimacy strength) or (Essence)", the strength being the bonus to Resolve they would otherwise grant. so +2/+3/+4. While this may look like an invitation to get everything as Defining strength, given the disadvantages strong Intimacies carry I think that will be a sufficent balancing act.

          Pillar of Compassion: Add (Essence) dice to rolls involving discerning the emotional well-being of others, or (Intimacy) dice if the subject is someone to which the Jadeborn has a positive Tie.

          Pillar of Conviction: Add (Intimacy) to Resolve versus any persuade, bargain, or threaten action that would cause the Jadeborn to betray that Intimacy; this stacks with the natural Intimacy bonus and can be applied even if magic negates that natural bonus or an opposing Intimacy cancels it out. Enlightened Jadeborn may instead apply half of their (Essence), rounded up, to all uses of Resolve.

          Pillar of Temperance: Add (Intimacy) dice to any extended action done in service to a Principle, or under the orders of a superior the Jadeborn possesses a Tie to. Enlightened Jadeborn may substitute (Essence) and apply this Pillar to any extended action they choose.

          Pillar of Valor: While acting to further a Principle the Jadeborn holds dear, the Jadeborn adds (Intimacy) dice to all rolls against fatigue or environmental conditions.

          (The dice bonuses are somewhat larger on average, since a lot of charms were 'half the virtue', or even 'a third', but I like the idea of the charms being more powerful but restricted to thing the Jadeborn cares about to underline both their need for a structured society and the echo of a raksha needing emotions to devour. As things of Creation, Jadeborn have their own emotions, but still draw strength from them.)


          • #20
            Yeah, that could work. Especially for the worker pattern.

            For warrior, I had an idea that also sort of resolves the issue of resonance. Because it's tempting to give the jadeborn resonance with jade, but that might be too powerful in the long run and steps on dragonblooded's toes a fair bit. Even downgrading everything a step might be too much.

            So I thought, hey, what if as far as standard evocations go, they're dissonant with everything, but they have some other innate connection with jade? Like, maybe some of their charms can bounce off it or get stronger if they have certain colours of jade nearby.

            For example, instead of a bunch of jade transformation charms, it's one charm that lets them transform into whatever colour(s) of jade they happen to be in contact with, absorbing-man style.


            • #21
              Ok, guys, I am sorry for taking so long. I... Had some problems.

              My internet took a bit longer that I expected to work again (had to change the whole connection) and, more importantly, I started my Gender Reassignment Therapy, and started a Law degree, so, I will be fair, these months have been pretty hectic, and the game was the last thing I was thinking on.

              But... I am in a more stable phase of my life now, I think. Both the degree and the therapy are going pretty well, and for the first time in years, I am starting to feel happy. So, I have been thinking about the game lately, which I absolutely adore, and with that, this project.

              I like your ideas, guys. Really love them. My opinions, for now...

              1)The Ork inspiration thing. I thing this could be a good place to go. It makes them more Wyld-related, but intrinsically tied to Creation, as they still need one of the most stable materials known to be able to reproduce. They infect nearby jade, which can grow, until becoming a full-fledged (although infantile) Jadeborn, and unworked Jade could naturally develop Jadeborn "tumors", specially in Wyld-tainted areas, which could develop and become a new Mountain One. This is not common, but it happens sometimes, and as once a Jadeborn is born, he/she can infect nearby Jade veins, they can form small communities, spontaneously generated, completely isolated from other Mountain Folk enclaves, and as such, with alien and strange cultures...

              Worked Jade is more resistant to this change, and the Jade used on an artifact is completely inmune: it´s not "pure" or natural now, and mixed with steel, and Moonsilver, and dust grinded from a Behemoth´s bones, and a bunch other things that prohibit it from being infected by the spontaneous disease of the Jadeborn!

              2) Martial Arts. Yes, allow them to practice Martial Arts. Martial Arts are cool, allow lots of concepts, both for PCs, NPCs, new martial arts (Pickaxe martial art, practiced by Workers to defend themselves from ambushing Darkbrood! Five Jade Union Style, using the elemental thematics not used in Immaculate Martial Arts! Courageous Grenadier Style, which uses the strange weapons developed by the genius of the Artisans, mixing both a firewand and an axe in the same weapon!). For balance, limit them to Terrestrial (they are, after all, suppossed to be lower powered than DBs!) although with some ways to avoid that. Maybe ignores the Terrestrial tag in the Jade Style related to their colour, or some mechanism at higher Essence to ignore that tag in general under certain conditions? I don´t know,but will be Terrestrial-level Martial Artists as a baseline

              3)Magic... For Magic I have some doubts. I like Sorcery, I love it, but I think it is a bit outside their aesthetics. I think... Geomancy, which allows them to do Sorcerous Workings, both from manipulation of local Essence flows, internal and external alchemy, and a incredible mastery of Craft, would be cool for them, and of course, their charms could have a lot of effects which could replicate Spells, and get similar effects. Both in their general trees (Green Jade Pattern could allow them to get an effect similar to Wood Dragon´s Claws, probably with some poison too!) and trees more related to Essence-manipulation and geomancy, which charms would be more similar to Spells.

              4)The whole Virtues thing. Yes, I like Aliasi´s idea. Intimacies are obviously the way to go, and makes the characters more powerful when they are doing something they really care for. That stuff is cool, and of course it will be used!

              5)Elfive is right. Maybe Ressonant with Jade is too powerful, but Dissonant with they thing they are literally made of... I don´t know, it feels wrong. Normal with Jade, Dissonant with all other things? Just like Liminals are Normal with Soulsteel, Dissonant with all other materials. About absorbing, I think it may be cool, but I liked the idea of being born from an specific colour of Jade, which caracterizes and defines their nature. So, although they have their base material, maybe they can change it and use another colour of Jade as a base, temporally? But that means that changing your base colour has to be a big deal...

              Maybe the base effects of each material are good enough that it is worth it, or maybe you can only use Refinement and Purity charms of the material you are right now (which would, by default, disable those effects from the non-Jade trees)? I don´t know. The idea seems cool, but I have to think more about the implementation...


              • #22
                Congrats on your busy RL. Sounds like it is going well for you.

                I feel similarly about your concerns in regards to giving them access to Sorcery. Even in 2nd ed, only they could try that sort of thing using the Alchemical charmset. I'm more inclined to draw upon Rakasha Wyld Shaping (Chaos Pattern) and Geomancy than sorcery for these guys.

                That said, I would like to remind everyone that the Jadeborn, like the Dragon Kings had a set population number due to a limited number of souls. While I do like the 'Ork growth/tumour' idea, I recommend that it generally only produces unenlighted as the Great Maker isn't around to help the change from fae to Creation creatures. I also see the few Enlightened reborn in these 'Wyld Marches' as being seen as inferior to their more 'civilized' counterparts. ("Well if you last incarnation was not a criminal/heretic/coward/traitor, why were you reincarnated away from the rest of us?")

                As for the Ressonant/absorbing idea, why not have the option to become Ressonant with a single colour of Jade temporarily as a charm if you absorb/eat that colour of jade. (Changing your own colour of jade is problematic if we give them their own preset patterns. Love that idea!) We can make it part of their 'colour' born pattern so if you are playing a red jade warrior, you can only become ressonant with red jade temporarily (and even then you need to 'consume' some. Making it mid-high in the pattern means that it is less of an issue, locking it to one colour cuts down on treding the DBs (they all treat all jade as ressonant) and making it temporary and requiring a donsumbile means it is not always on. At that point, it might well be easy to overlook in their arsenal, while still letting them benefit from the large stockpile of first age artefacts they can still produce. I do think that should still be among their strong suits as a species but it doesn't feel like Caste type split.

                The Jadeborn should just be good at using tools regardless of Caste; from Enlightened Workers in the capital with Jade pickaxes to the (theoretical) Borderland Warriors with improvised (and illogical) weapons. The Great Maker took these Fae and remade them. So even when it is not their job to make, I feel they should still have some connection their own creations.

                Thoughts ripple out, birthing others


                • #23
                  One idea I had regarding what to replace virtues with as far as hanging charms off was to give them extra traits that run from 1-5 dots based on each type of jade. That could act as a slider, so they start out dissonant but with 3 dots their neutral and with 5 they're resonant.

                  So, it's not identical to the dragonblooded but with effort they can get there.

                  Also it occurred to me just now that if people dislike the whole "Solars strong-armed Autochthon into crippling the jadeborn" you could instead say it happened at the hands of the Yozi during the war.


                  • #24
                    FallenEco Yes, they are still limited by numer. Although, with the Great Contagion, and the Endless War, I think that point is moot: probably even with common tumours and growth, they are never near the theoretical maximum number for their race...

                    And yes, probably most are unEnlightened, both in the "civilized" areas, and in the Wyld Outposts. Although I guess the ones who are born in the Wyld areas are probably more fucked off than the rest: they lack the infrastructure of their kin, and lack access to their secrets and arts. Which probably explain why they use stranger and more illogical weapons: they have to improvise, and being near to the Wyld, improbable designs work better...

                    About the absorbing thing, I was even thinking about linking the Ressonance to the Material Patterns. Probably you are only Ressonant to the Pattern which Purity Charm you have active, and maybe each Purity Charm, or some Charms in the tree, have bonuses if activated by someone born as that material. But I don´t know, maybe that will lead to mono-builds... ("I am Green Jade, why should I buy Black Jade Charms, if Green Jade have bonuses for me?"). I don´t know, I have to think more about this
                    Elfive Mmmm. The traits could be interesting, but they should bring something more that unlocking charms. If not, they are a barrier and an experience sink. As you say... At 3 at the Trait they lose Dissonance, at 5 they get Ressonance, at intermediate stages they get minor bonuses? I don´t know, White Jade 4 adds piercing to unarmed attack as they gain the solidity of stone, or something like that. But if you get "Red Jade 2" you should be excited about getting something for your buck, not "Yay, I spent experience for the privilege of spending experience on other things!"

                    And as I said, I am still thinking about linking Ressonance/Dissonance to the Material Patterns. but this is all in a theoretical and debate phase, so any idea is appreciated and likely to be incorporated if I like it more that what I had in mind. Originally I wasn´t going to do the Ork thing, they were going to be a more traditional update, but I am loving the concept...
                    About the Solars thing. Is that something people dislike? I liked it, as it also explains why Autochthon left Creation in disgust, but I´m not really-really attached to the idea. The Yozi/Primordial explanation could be interesting too and maybe the Great Maker left in sorrow, or feeling that he would always be an outsider in this new order, or for any other motive, maybe something unknowable. As I said, I´m not overtly attached to the original story, and if it can be changed to something cool...


                    • #25
                      Yeah, the idea was they'd do more than just unlock charms. They could also form part of the dice pool, where that's applicable, or have charm effects based off them, so buying extra improves what you already have.

                      Essentially it would work similarly to Renown from Werewolf the Forsaken second edition. There buying a new dot of renown also unlocks a new gift (charm), which would also be possible here, if it proved necessary.


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                        Yeah, the idea was they'd do more than just unlock charms. They could also form part of the dice pool, where that's applicable, or have charm effects based off them, so buying extra improves what you already have.
                        So, for example, activating a Sorcerous Charm of the Blue Jade Pattern would mean rolling (Whatever Attribute is used/Essence)+Blue Jade, for example. Along with unlocking extra charm levels, of course!. Mmmm. It doesn´t sound bad.

                        I was thinking too about Charms prerrequisites. Because I don´t want to base them only on Essence, but if linked to the thematic of the Charm... "This Green Jade charm allows you to resists poisons, so you need high Resistance, and it´s the prerrequisite for another Green Jade charm which lets you make poisonous unarmed attacks, needing high Medicine" would be an usual problem, needing to have a high score in an ability you don´t care for, in order to buy a charm you really care for, and is based in an Ability you really use...

                        Maybe linking them to those traits is a good solution. Or something similar. Of course, we need something for non-Material Patterns, from Chaos, to the Caste ones (if we allow them...) to maybe the non-Jade Materials, if I include Patterns for them...