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  • #16
    Guys, the first line in Arms of the Chosen under 'Designing Artifacts and Evocations' states:
    "Every artifact armor or weapon, and many a unique wonder rated at 3+ dots, has Evocations [...]"

    Bolding mine. So by this metric, you can't do an artifact 2 weapon. You can do an artifact 2 lesser wonder, but it won't have evocations, basically.


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    • #17
      *swimming further from canon*

      yes, we know.

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      • #18
        I’d like to point out that on 593-594 in the core book, it says all the weapons listed there (meaning Every artifact weapon type in the book) is a minimum 3 dots. It’s not just that evocations unlock at 3 dots and above, it’s that only artifact 3 or above is what are for artifact weapons. This is again I believe a design intent to prevent mass production of artifact weapons, a major problem in second edition, as well as making artifact weapons not feel interchangeable.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
          *swimming further from canon*

          yes, we know.
          You may, but your original post framed it as if it was perfectly reasonable to just make artifact weapons at 2 dots. Except RAW it isn't.

          OP doesn't own Arms, best not to assume everyone knows that you're talking pure orichalcum rule here.

          EDIT: Actually, I don't know for sure OP doesn't own arms, but the fact remains that this entire thread was asking for clarification on RAW.
          Last edited by armyofwhispers; 08-03-2018, 11:42 AM.


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          • #20
            See, I figured I made that clear when I spoke of the canon-enforcing ninjas, but ok.

            To summarise: The artifact cost of weapons is almost entirely a feature of their evocations. Without them, there's no real difference between a three dot and a five dot daiklave. All artifact weapons are assumed to have evocations, and only artifacts of three dots and above can have evocations.

            For these two reasons, by raw, there is no such thing as a two-dot artifact weapon.

            And just to be clear, in 3e there's no such thing as a one-dot artifact, period.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Elfive View Post
              See, I figured I made that clear when I spoke of the canon-enforcing ninjas, but ok.

              To summarise: The artifact cost of weapons is almost entirely a feature of their evocations. Without them, there's no real difference between a three dot and a five dot daiklave. All artifact weapons are assumed to have evocations, and only artifacts of three dots and above can have evocations.

              For these two reasons, by raw, there is no such thing as a two-dot artifact weapon.

              And just to be clear, in 3e there's no such thing as a one-dot artifact, period.
              I disagree that this is about canon enforcement, so much as that this is trying to explain knock on effects and why these things were changed. The knowing why a thing was changed, and the intent with that change, mean a lot of you are trying to alter the setting because you run into secondary effects you may not intend.

              For instance, the reasoning I derive from both CORE and Arms stems from a dev desire to remove mass produced/industrialized artifact creation from happening, which is part of the overall strategy to make artifacts and sorcery in the 1st age to have been “modern day tech but with different power sources” that 2e was notorious for.

              Adding back in 2 dot artifacts begins to undo this, as does doing things like making it easy for mortals to attune to said artifacts.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Saipjas View Post

                I disagree that this is about canon enforcement, so much as that this is trying to explain knock on effects and why these things were changed. The knowing why a thing was changed, and the intent with that change, mean a lot of you are trying to alter the setting because you run into secondary effects you may not intend.

                For instance, the reasoning I derive from both CORE and Arms stems from a dev desire to remove mass produced/industrialized artifact creation from happening, which is part of the overall strategy to make artifacts and sorcery in the 1st age to have been “modern day tech but with different power sources” that 2e was notorious for.

                Adding back in 2 dot artifacts begins to undo this, as does doing things like making it easy for mortals to attune to said artifacts.
                A solar who wants to churn out a bunch of diaklaves can pretty easily with their own charms.

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                • #23
                  Ehh, if you try and churn them out you'll run out of Gold XP, unless you have the entire 11-charm xp-generating tree, several craft abilities at 5, and a good essence score.

                  I do have all of those, but making 3 artefacts in a story still used up all my gold xp (for a few sessions, then I'll probably be able to make more; but having downtime without a bunch of adventuring sessions wouldn't be much use).
                  Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 08-03-2018, 06:20 PM.


                  "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                    A solar who wants to churn out a bunch of diaklaves can pretty easily with their own charms.
                    There is a difference between one solar churning out 100 daiklaves and 100 Dragonblooded being able to churn out 1000 daiklaves each.

                    Edit: yes I am being hyperbolic for effect, but it’s a matter of scale is what I am saying and illustrating.
                    Last edited by Saipjas; 08-03-2018, 05:30 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Luckily, not every Chosen do the whole crafting thing. Otherwise they'd all also have to invest a whole lot in bureaucracy. Exotic materials are hard to get by.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ThatSmellyGoblin View Post
                        Luckily, not every Chosen do the whole crafting thing. Otherwise they'd all also have to invest a whole lot in bureaucracy. Exotic materials are hard to get by.
                        If you are operating at the level of an individual absolutely, if you are leading a Creation spanning imperial polity and can effectively create a societal structure that can industrialize, it becomes much more problematic. Hence the efforts by the Devs to ensure that the ability to industrialize artifacts is NOT a thing mechanically in addition to placing societal barriers.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Saipjas View Post

                          If you are operating at the level of an individual absolutely, if you are leading a Creation spanning imperial polity and can effectively create a societal structure that can industrialize, it becomes much more problematic. Hence the efforts by the Devs to ensure that the ability to industrialize artifacts is NOT a thing mechanically in addition to placing societal barriers.
                          Too bad the old devs really didn't do a good job at it. Rather than create a charmset that would cultivate wonders, solars are expected to churn them out to gain White xp. It's a really good system for incentivizing industrialization. But that's probably the least of the solar craft tree's issues.

                          Also, a solar crafter, can just get enough god-blooded, ( or his own children with high essence) equip and train them, and then conquer places to get more materials. Bureaucracy isn't the only way to get materials.
                          Last edited by Epimetheus; 08-03-2018, 07:33 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                            A solar who wants to churn out a bunch of diaklaves can pretty easily with their own charms.
                            Tell me their stories.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                              Tell me their stories.
                              The stories are started after they're created. They aren't created with one.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                                Too bad the old devs really didn't do a good job at it. Rather than create a charmset that would cultivate wonders, solars are expected to churn them out to gain White xp. It's a really good system for incentivizing industrialization. But that's probably the least of the solar craft tree's issues.
                                While there are a number of things I dislike about the Solar craft charmset, and wish I could un-buy all those Craft charms I've got for my Zenith, one good thing I will say about it is that I don't think it encourages industrialisation. Or rather, it'd be good for you if you could, but the charmset doesn't really let you. It's too reliant on points generated by sessions of active play to allow you to just build a factory and spend a bunch of downtime doing stuff there. At least, in my experience.

                                Also, a solar crafter, can just get enough god-blooded, ( or his own children with high essence) equip and train them, and then conquer places to get more materials. Bureaucracy isn't the only way to get materials.
                                I don't think there's that many god-blooded who can channel essence waiting around to be recruited to conquer places. I'd think it'd be easier to recruit, well, a regular army.
                                But that's not necessarily something a Crafter is good at (equipping an army though...).

                                I'd think your best bet is to ally with a Dawn with an army, rather than try recruiting your own, and have your Dawn buddy conquer places and give you the magical materials.


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