Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

2e: Purity Crucible Strike, how comes Dragon Bloods ain't pure ?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    This is also the kind of thing that might make other Celestial Exalts take pre-emptive action against you because this is the behaviour of someone who intends to make a massive power grab.

    And as it's a plan that takes hundreds of years, there's plenty of opportunity to a)find out, and b)stop it.


    "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cruzwindt View Post
      So, why shouldn't the beings created to be the soldiers of the solars, not be at their command ?
      I refer you back to "2e was wrong". 2e smeared shit all over itself by its' efforts to deprotagonize everyone but Solars. Arguing about why 2e did or didn't do something is an inherently fruitless endeavor because it all stems back to "2e was wrong".

      "Why shouldn't the soldiers--"
      Soldiers choose to obey. Loyalty is earned. And these are Exalted nonetheless. You seem to think that soldier = slave.

      A general can order his soldier to march, to fight. The soldier will obey because these are reasonable, rational orders, which he agreed to follow.

      If a general orders his soldier to abandon their wife and marry someone else because of superior breeding outcomes, the soldier is fully within their rights to say "the hell you say". They are not a slave. Their personal lives are voluntarily set aside for service, but are not for the general to dictate.

      And again, these soldiers are Exalted. If that doesn't mean anything to you...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
        I refer you back to "2e was wrong". 2e smeared shit all over itself by its' efforts to deprotagonize everyone but Solars. Arguing about why 2e did or didn't do something is an inherently fruitless endeavor because it all stems back to "2e was wrong".

        "Why shouldn't the soldiers--"
        Soldiers choose to obey. Loyalty is earned. And these are Exalted nonetheless. You seem to think that soldier = slave.

        A general can order his soldier to march, to fight. The soldier will obey because these are reasonable, rational orders, which he agreed to follow.

        If a general orders his soldier to abandon their wife and marry someone else because of superior breeding outcomes, the soldier is fully within their rights to say "the hell you say". They are not a slave. Their personal lives are voluntarily set aside for service, but are not for the general to dictate.

        And again, these soldiers are Exalted. If that doesn't mean anything to you...
        One issue there. History is replete with examples of people committing atrocities because 'they were just following orders.' You can take a random person off the street and get them to torture someone because there's a person with a lab coat telling them it's okay and that they should keep going.

        Authority is a scary thing.

        That said, history is also replete with examples of individuals who ignored their orders to try and do the right thing or to do what they felt was right. If only 1/10 mortals are willing to break from the mold and refuse to conform, I'd think that it would be more like 9/10 Dragon Bloods who do. Because Every. Single. One. Of. Them. is a god damn hero.


        Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

          I'd be interested in hearing more about this.
          Well, they were 3, Saibok Gauto who remains a loyal soldier primordial war survivor, he was essence 9-8 if I remember right.
          Then the other two were essence 5, one a DB in the Deliberative Armada who remained loyal to the solars, because he knew they were needed to protect creation. He also was considering murdering one of his children cuz she didn't exalted and he was worried that would ruin his military career.
          And the other was Anjei who was literally a slave. They are in the end fo Dreams of the First Age Lords of Creation supplement.

          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
          This seems like a much stronger argument against having thousands of people with Essence 6.
          mmm you're right, it may be.


          Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post

          "Why shouldn't the soldiers--"
          Soldiers choose to obey. Loyalty is earned. And these are Exalted nonetheless. You seem to think that soldier = slave.

          A general can order his soldier to march, to fight. The soldier will obey because these are reasonable, rational orders, which he agreed to follow.
          Yes, but you are forgetting that these soldiers are indoctrinated since birth, if we can get anything from how the primordial war went off, is that the Dragon Blooded of first generation concentrated in reproducing. or else there couldn't be many left, specially with a war that killed people all around creation.
          They were also made for the purpose of being liutenants of the celestials and put at their command. Only after years of abuses and excess did that loyalty worn off and they betrayed their masters. But before that they were mostly loyal to them.

          Also, many soldiers don't necessarily follow rational orders as per following their conscience. If that would be true then war crimes wouldn't exist.


          Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post


          If a general orders his soldier to abandon their wife and marry someone else because of superior breeding outcomes, the soldier is fully within their rights to say "the hell you say". They are not a slave. Their personal lives are voluntarily set aside for service, but are not for the general to dictate.
          Of course and as portrayed in DoTFA many did so, but many other did not, because since child they were told that the moral thing to do was obey solars.
          Again, it's hard to me to see why does this takes protagonism from the DBs. A soldier can be a hero despite not being a general.




          Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
          And again, these soldiers are Exalted. If that doesn't mean anything to you...
          Well, we don't have to have the same concepts for everything, I'm just trying to understand which one gives the maximum output of fun. But I don't see correlation between the things you say.
          Just because there is someone more powerful than you and that person can manipulate you into doing things doesn't make you less of a protagonist, in fact, many good histories go down that way, with the heroes being manipulated into helping the bad guy achieve ultimate power and then defeating him with a McGuffin or some other thing.
          Last edited by Cruzwindt; 08-10-2018, 11:27 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Hey, maybe a bunch of Solars did decide to do it. And that was one of the contributing factors behind the Usurpation.


            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
              A general can order his soldier to march, to fight. The soldier will obey because these are reasonable, rational orders, which he agreed to follow.

              If a general orders his soldier to abandon their wife and marry someone else because of superior breeding outcomes, the soldier is fully within their rights to say "the hell you say". They are not a slave. Their personal lives are voluntarily set aside for service, but are not for the general to dictate.
              I should say, this kind of thing does sometimes happen. People can be pressured by society to divorce and remarry. My dad has a colleague who was fired+blacklisted in the USSR from his job as a physicist because he got ordained, and his wife was "encouraged" to divorce him, or she'd be blacklisted too (and so she did divorce him, which he didn't really blame her for).

              And in the Roman Empire, nobles (optimates, equestrians, etc, I mean) were sometimes told to get divorces and remarry by the head of their households, for political position or wealth or whatever.

              Which is not to say that you're entirely wrong. I mean, I could imagine a Solar ordering his Dragonblood to do it. But it'd surely make them pretty pissed off.
              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 08-10-2018, 11:31 AM.


              "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

              Comment


              • #22
                The difference is that you seem to hold it as the default that every single DB should have been a brainwashed little slave to their Solar Masters. I think part of this is heavily the fact that 2e mechanics were absolute shit -- I usually define it like so:

                100% is the baseline capacity required to interact with the systems, other than "killing a dude".
                2e Solars have 100-120%.
                2e Lunars and Sidereals are in the 60-70% range. 2e DBs in the 30% range, Mortals down around 10%.

                As such of COURSE DBs look like utter trash who should be effortlessly twisted around Solar fingers, they're so shitty, they have shitty shitshit worthless charms compared to Solars who actually function.

                3e makes it more like100% mortals, 160% DBs, 200% Solars. Solars are amazing, and more powerful. But DBs function, they're cool and capable and can actually act. On top of this, the social influence system is more robust and functional, so it's not so simple as "Brainwashing is just a matter of draining their Willpower to 0 so they can't resist and then influencing them however you like and oh of course Solars are the best at draining WP and pushing people so of course they'd be able to just effortlessly brainwash everyone around them into being perfect little slaves who do whatever they say and it doesn't even take all that much effort for them teehee one Solar can totally effortlessly brainwash 100,000 DBs."

                I believe that if, as you seem to hold, 99% of DBs are docile little lamb-slaves who happily throw themselves into the grinder for a marginal increase of power at the behest of their Solar masters, dying by the thousands to try and make a "more pure" bloodline for a few extra motes here and there, then yeah, they've had their agency and protagonism fully stripped away.

                2e also painted Creation's First Age as perfectly divided up into three hundred solar domains where each was LAW and there was nowhere that was not a Solar domain for someone to act on their own because they were all unified in some pan-Creation harmonious government. 3e paints the first age as a long, tumultuous time in which they had strife against each other and the world, striving to claim the vast reaches of Creation in the wake of the victory of the gods and their Chosen, not some "boom, done" thing. There was no panopticon-style "all within this territory know obedience to their Solar Master", Dragon-Blooded and Lunars could easily set out and claim places for themselves, creating their own principalities and kingdoms, their own dynasties that swore allegiance to no Solar.

                This is better.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Don't forget, Most dragon blooded who'd learn the charm probably view any dilution of the blood of the Dragons as blasphemy.

                  That further makes this plan a BAD idea.


                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
                    The difference is that you seem to hold it as the default that every single DB should have been a brainwashed little slave to their Solar Masters. I think part of this is heavily the fact that 2e mechanics were absolute shit -- I usually define it like so:
                    No no, I don't, as I've said before, there were many free DBs on the 1st Age 2ed setting. Entire gentes refused to serve their Solar's reincarnations. But Solars from the first millenia after the PW were extremely powerful, those were the ones who had a tight hold on the gentes they were given.


                    Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
                    100% is the baseline capacity required to interact with the systems, other than "killing a dude".
                    2e Solars have 100-120%.
                    2e Lunars and Sidereals are in the 60-70% range. 2e DBs in the 30% range, Mortals down around 10%.

                    As such of COURSE DBs look like utter trash who should be effortlessly twisted around Solar fingers, they're so shitty, they have shitty shitshit worthless charms compared to Solars who actually function.

                    3e makes it more like100% mortals, 160% DBs, 200% Solars. Solars are amazing, and more powerful. But DBs function, they're cool and capable and can actually act. On top of this, the social influence system is more robust and functional, so it's not so simple as "Brainwashing is just a matter of draining their Willpower to 0 so they can't resist and then influencing them however you like and oh of course Solars are the best at draining WP and pushing people so of course they'd be able to just effortlessly brainwash everyone around them into being perfect little slaves who do whatever they say and it doesn't even take all that much effort for them teehee one Solar can totally effortlessly brainwash 100,000 DBs."

                    Well I disagree there, a game that has all ''classes'' balanced so anyone can pick any race or class they like and still have fun together, so that a human can be on the same level as the doom race created from the ashes of titans and dragon fire with the power of angels and demons, it's great for some people, but personally I don't find balance that interesting, I've had more fun in games that are not balanced, either being an OP character that does shenanigans, or a small being trying to overthrow a very powerful existence in an almost impossible campaign.
                    Also lorewise, if the different Exalteds didn't had that much difference in power, it would make the whole point of solars useless. Why spend all that power making a few hundred warriors who are just slightly better, when you can simply create thousands more who are almost as good and even reproduce ?

                    Also you can't Brainwash anyone as per rules, after all, you cannot make someone go against their motivation without unnatural influence, and that fades off quite quick, unless we are talking about Threefold binding of the heart, which was a 1ed spell btw, and combined with Imbue Amalgan you can easily brainwash hundreds of people.
                    The REAL problem with 2ed social combat ain't brainwashing, but that you can break the system to NATURALLY compel people to do your bidding, so, it's no that you brainwashed someone, but more that you REALLY convinced them to murder their wife and children. Which makes little to no sense.


                    Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
                    I believe that if, as you seem to hold, 99% of DBs are docile little lamb-slaves who happily throw themselves into the grinder for a marginal increase of power at the behest of their Solar masters, dying by the thousands to try and make a "more pure" bloodline for a few extra motes here and there, then yeah, they've had their agency and protagonism fully stripped away.
                    Again, you say that being at the solar's service makes them less of a protagonist, but I don't see that way. A DB can be as much of a hero ( in the greek sense of the word ) as he wants while still being at the command of a superior. Most of the time, the adventurer that goes to kill the demon king does so at the behest of a King who orders him to. That doesn't make the adventurer less of the protagonist of that history.
                    Also, DBs serfdom has little to do with being docile, and more with the fact that their creator made them with the purpose of being under Solar's care, and like the solars who evolved from being Titan killing machines into kings, the DBs also evolved from that purpose in the future, but the 1st age BEFORE the usurpation, was a time before that evolution happen, so I don't see the problem with them still being loyal to their commanders in chief.

                    From a mortal perspective this may make sense, but we are talking from the perspectives of beings that live hundreds of years.

                    Younger DB: Hey grandfather, remember those histories you told us about how the solars saved the world and even your life during the primordial war ?
                    Elder DB: Sure kid, want me to tell them again for you ?
                    Younger DB: nah, I just wanted to tell you we are going to revolt and kill all the solars, wanna join old man ?
                    Elder DB: What ?!

                    At the time, many DBs had their trust earned by the solars, even if they manipulated them for that trust.


                    Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post

                    2e also painted Creation's First Age as perfectly divided up into three hundred solar domains where each was LAW and there was nowhere that was not a Solar domain for someone to act on their own because they were all unified in some pan-Creation harmonious government. 3e paints the first age as a long, tumultuous time in which they had strife against each other and the world, striving to claim the vast reaches of Creation in the wake of the victory of the gods and their Chosen, not some "boom, done" thing. There was no panopticon-style "all within this territory know obedience to their Solar Master", Dragon-Blooded and Lunars could easily set out and claim places for themselves, creating their own principalities and kingdoms, their own dynasties that swore allegiance to no Solar.

                    This is better.
                    Well, that's untrue, sure the 1st age is portrayed as a very peaceful time for humanity. But there weren't 300 domains, only a few solars had actually principalities, most of them just had manses and lands in their care. The solars actually fought one another in less of an open war and most in assassination, defamation , etcs. It was more of a cold war era. There were a lot of times of war before the age of dreams with open warfare between the solars, but eventually the most powerful faction of the deliberative brought an end to the conflict. Which I don't see nothing wrong with. After all, creation was given to the solars, not to other exalteds, it would make little sense for anyone to oppose the saviors of the world, and the gods themselves who rule it.
                    Last edited by Cruzwindt; 08-10-2018, 02:46 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cruzwindt View Post

                      Again, you say that being at the solar's service makes them less of a protagonist, but I don't see that way. A DB can be as much of a hero ( in the greek sense of the word ) as he wants while still being at the command of a superior. Most of the time, the adventurer that goes to kill the demon king does so at the behest of a King who orders him to. That doesn't make the adventurer less of the protagonist of that history.
                      Also, DBs serfdom has little to do with being docile, and more with the fact that their creator made them with the purpose of being under Solar's care, and like the solars who evolved from being Titan killing machines into kings, the DBs also evolved from that purpose in the future, but the 1st age BEFORE the usurpation, was a time before that evolution happen, so I don't see the problem with them still being loyal to their commanders in chief.

                      From a mortal perspective this may make sense, but we are talking from the perspectives of beings that live hundreds of years.

                      Younger DB: Hey grandfather, remember those histories you told us about how the solars saved the world and even your life during the primordial war ?
                      Elder DB: Sure kid, want me to tell them again for you ?
                      Younger DB: nah, I just wanted to tell you we are going to revolt and kill all the solars, wanna join old man ?
                      Elder DB: What ?!

                      At the time, many DBs had their trust earned by the solars, even if they manipulated them for that trust.
                      How many stories are there where the hero blindly obeyed the king, did the quest and both the hero and the king were protagonists of the story? I think you'll find that in the majority of those stories, either the king is just a quest giver NPC who doesn't really ask the hero to do anything unheroic, ever, or the king tries to manipulate the hero, making him an antagonist for the hero to overcome. I can think of a couple that do go along the lines you say, but they pretty much all involve a hero ordering his loyal dog to do things. And as awesome as dogs are, 'you are playing someone's pet' isn't exactly the best first step to get most players into the mindset of exalted gaming. Even Pugmire doesn't make you play pets.







                      I thank the Devs for the great game of Exalted!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BjornTheFellhanded View Post

                        How many stories are there where the hero blindly obeyed the king, did the quest and both the hero and the king were protagonists of the story? I think you'll find that in the majority of those stories, either the king is just a quest giver NPC who doesn't really ask the hero to do anything unheroic, ever, or the king tries to manipulate the hero, making him an antagonist for the hero to overcome. I can think of a couple that do go along the lines you say, but they pretty much all involve a hero ordering his loyal dog to do things. And as awesome as dogs are, 'you are playing someone's pet' isn't exactly the best first step to get most players into the mindset of exalted gaming. Even Pugmire doesn't make you play pets.
                        I dunno if we can post links in this forum but
                        https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../UnwittingPawn
                        What can I say dude, it's a pretty common thing for a protagonistic character to be manipulated into something.

                        And I get what you are saying, but , the moment a player characer starts playing out a DB, it stops being someone's pet, and starts getting that much deserved individualism we were talking about back there. There are ways to escape solar brainwashing through plot and other ways around it, but you need to be a Player Character or a plot convergence to do so. It's not impossible just really hard. But saying that DBs should be slightly less powerful than solars for that to make sense is sand of another bag ... is that how you say it in english ?, makes more sense spanish. Well I guess the point goes through .

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Then that's where the disagreement lies. Being a PC isn't what makes a character interesting. Having unique traits, views and opinions is what does that. And that means not sweeping entire groups of people together with 'and they basically have no will of their own'.

                          How are is a player supposed to make an interesting character out of that without defying the stated trait of 'mindless drone'?

                          2nd ed defining Dragonbloods as being a servant race was a mistake. They aren't, and shouldn't have been. Not if they were also meant to make for interesting antagonists and player characters.


                          I thank the Devs for the great game of Exalted!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by BjornTheFellhanded View Post
                            Then that's where the disagreement lies. Being a PC isn't what makes a character interesting. Having unique traits, views and opinions is what does that. And that means not sweeping entire groups of people together with 'and they basically have no will of their own'.
                            No, that's not what I'm saying at all, being a PC isn't what it makes a character interesting. Being a PC is what makes a character a protagonist ( not necesarily all protagonist are PC, but all PC are protagonists ).
                            So the realm and the Shogunate shouldn't have existed for putting that many DBs in the same bag ? I think it's a little exagerated to say that just because a person shares some ideologies and is in the same organization as other people they are all the same person or are not individuals. Take for example the Red Cross. Most of the people there are heroes in a more modern sense who help other people, if you live on a disaster area and they arrive to help you are probably gonna consider them heroes despite all of them wanting to help and being members of the same organization.


                            Originally posted by BjornTheFellhanded View Post
                            How are is a player supposed to make an interesting character out of that without defying the stated trait of 'mindless drone'?
                            By making a compelling story about how a mindless drones discovers his own individuality and stands up against the powers that compel him to obey ?


                            Originally posted by BjornTheFellhanded View Post
                            2nd ed defining Dragonbloods as being a servant race was a mistake. They aren't, and shouldn't have been. Not if they were also meant to make for interesting antagonists and player characters.
                            Well, I find it lorewise acceptable. Also, I don't see the correlation as why a one time servant can't become an antagonist and a player character, that's just a background of it.
                            For example players can play with Demons if they want, and they are MADE to be servants.
                            If they choose a human instead of an exalted they are most likely to be servants of a noble.
                            You can also play like one of the Jade People, most of those are servants too.
                            Abyssals, Infernals, Alchemicals, all of them are setting servants of a superior power.
                            Seriously, I don't see the problem with a servant becoming a PC, specially when you don't specifically need to be a servant as per the setting leaves many DBs organizations free.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              For one thing it becomes cliche. The goodly drow rebel against his evil kin from the race that if you looked at PCs would seem to be entirely composed of good rebels against their evil kin who ostensibly exist Somewhere.

                              For another it spawns stupid arguments of people trying to claim that the dragon blooded should have been interred in purity breeding baby factories and death camps by Solars for their own good, and they would happily go to this fate because they're all indoctrinated in this way, but indoctrination totes isn't brainwashing despite that it in all functional ways is brainwashing if it means every dragon blooded but the rare PC class in the first age would throw away everything and throw themselves into a blender to see if they could become marginally stronger to the tune of roughly 3 motes, in a peaceful age that demanded no significant amount of power where this would become the number one cause of death if implemented

                              You would make it so there are two dragon blooded stories. The docile lamb slave and the rebel. 3e permits countless more. Choice is good, especially when it's not a false choice (who would want to play docile lamb slave?).

                              Re: "created as a servant race"; you can tell the same story of the dragon blood who Rose up against oppressor without making the state of oppression his Natural and Righteous and Correct state ie being created as a servant race. Having them be the warriors created by the elemental dragons, weaker individually but with the power of numbers behind them, with no assumption of "and they're totes naturally Solar slaves", makes them more compelling and the potential for individual Solars to have oppressed them and done horrible things in the name of power or the like more offensive to the senses.
                              Last edited by Meianno Yuurei; 08-11-2018, 08:13 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                So I'm going to point out that, in 2nd ed, for most of the First Age most DBs already had Breeding 5 or 6. So for most of the First Age, Purity Crucible Strike wouldn't do anything for most DBs anyway. There was no need to create elaborate and dangerous plans to get DBs to Breeding 5, as they already had it.

                                In the High First Age, the Deliberative made it legal to breed with mortals (but most DB families discouraged their kids from doing so anyway), and so for a Dreams of the First Age character, you don't have to have Breeding 5, but you are strongly encouraged to have Breeding 4 (it doesn't even require freebie points). I assume because that's the average Breeding of a DB of that time.

                                As allowing them to sully their bloodlines was a recent innovation, I doubt there was much of an incentive for Solars to try and give their DBs +1 Breeding via risky techniques (though DBs might have done it themselves).


                                In 3rd ed... there's no Purity Crucible Strike, so it's irrelevant.


                                "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X