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Sidereals, Terrestrials, and the Usurpation

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  • Sidereals, Terrestrials, and the Usurpation

    How many, if any, Dragon-Blooded know the truth about the Usurpation? Would any of them recognize a Sidereal if one walked up and introduced themselves?

  • #2
    The Scarlet Empress has had personal contact with Kejak. She even made him bow to her. So she knows, and possibly Mnemnon. However, by the the rules of the Immaculate Order, Sidereals would also be anathema, so they have good reason not to introduce themselves.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Dracheau View Post
      However, by the the rules of the Immaculate Order, Sidereals would also be anathema…
      Um, no, at least not in Third. Sidereals aren't Solars or Lunars, so one is only going to be labeled "Anathema" if she's threatening the Dragon-Blooded hegemony.

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      • #4
        I think how Sidereals can be handled is helped by the new 3rd edition cover story of any Exalt: "Oh me? Im an Exigent!". They were already good at disguises and fitting into positions people didn't expect them in, as they had a lot of roles to fill since they had the most control over the design of the Usurpation.

        This issue kind of reminds me of a Sidereal problem. Which i should make elsewhere instead of clogging up your thread here

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
          How many, if any, Dragon-Blooded know the truth about the Usurpation? Would any of them recognize a Sidereal if one walked up and introduced themselves?
          A few would know about sidereals but almost none would know about the Usurpation unless a sidereal told them. That happened 700 years before the start of the scarlet empire and arcane fate has gotten rid of most if not all the evidence of the facts.
          Last edited by Epimetheus; 08-10-2018, 02:34 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
            Um, no, at least not in Third. Sidereals aren't Solars or Lunars, so one is only going to be labeled "Anathema" if she's threatening the Dragon-Blooded hegemony.
            You mean like actively "infiltrating" the Immaculate Order, and using that authority to manipulate the Dragonbloods? If any Dragonblood found out about the Sidereals manipulation of the IO, it would instantly paint them in a very hostile light.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TalosX View Post

              You mean like actively "infiltrating" the Immaculate Order, and using that authority to manipulate the Dragonbloods? If any Dragonblood found out about the Sidereals manipulation of the IO, it would instantly paint them in a very hostile light.
              I suspect that any Terrestrial discovering evidence of Sidereal manipulation would either A) be quickly and discreetly disposed of, or B) read into the conspiracy, if option A was, for some reason, infeasible.

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              • #8
                Well if we're talking the whole truth, then I'm thinking those numbers are slim to none. If we're just talking "Ages ago the Solars ruled the world with the aid of other members of the Exalted host. This lasted until they were cast down for when it became clear that they were the greatest enemies to the world." Then the count is probably higher though still relegated to upper ranks.

                In 3rd edition Sidereal seem to be a sort of legend figures of great power and mystery that have just enough known about them for it to be thought by most that there is something that exists. Most Dynasts probably speculate that these are just ignorant peasants spinning exaggerated tales for their amusement and conflating stories about exigents or god bloods. In any case I think that in most editions the upper echelons that are most likely to be getting addressed by a Sid or dealing with the leaders of the Immaculate Order have some knowledge of what a Sidereal is, if only to save time when one side needs the other. Also probably to address potential conflict before it becomes a serious issue. Like one of the 1st ed DB caste books has a DB go paranoid during their schooling because they encountered a Sid at the Heptagram and started being concerned about Anathema infiltration. It would consequently be rather helpful for there to be people in the upper ranks that might be called on to deal with such a threat to be able to go, "Oh that, that was just one the chosen of the Maidens. They prefer that most of the world not know about them, plus from what I've heard most people have this tendency to not remember having dealt with them after the fact. Did you get a name by chance, it is a problem if one of them is being that sloppy and I do need to report them for it."

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                • #9
                  Jesus, how many people have either forgotten or never bothered to read the sidebar in the core book?

                  Sidereals generally pass themselves off as Exigents, with a few educated Dragon Blooded knowing that they're a distinct kind of Exalt who resides in Heaven and, most importantly, are key supporters of their supremacy over Creation.

                  Originally posted by Hakkonen View Post
                  How many, if any, Dragon-Blooded know the truth about the Usurpation?
                  I can't give an exact number, but members of the Scarlet Dynasty that are fairly highly educated and decently ranked members of the Immaculate Order have a fairly accurate picture of the Usurpation and the Celestial Exalted.

                  Originally posted by TalosX
                  using that authority to manipulate the Dragonbloods


                  "I just feel so used."
                  "Why, what'd they do?"
                  "They keep manipulating me into actions that reinforce my position as an unchallenged ruler of the Earth!"
                  "... And the problem is?"
                  "What is the matter with me, why am I such a peasant?"


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    "I just feel so used."
                    "Why, what'd they do?"
                    "They keep manipulating me into actions that reinforce my position as an unchallenged ruler of the Earth!"
                    "... And the problem is?"
                    "What is the matter with me, why am I such a peasant?"[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
                    "But wait a minute. Why do I need them to reinforce my position, when I can do that all on my own. In fact, I am a Prince of the Earth, ordained by the Immaculate Dragons with the right to rule Creation. These Sidereals almost certainly have other agenda's, and they seek to manipulate the rightful rulers of Creation. All Sidereals are Anathema and will be destroyed!"

                    You can make any excuse you'd like, but no one likes being manipulated and used as a pawn. If a Dragonblood discovered some proof of Sidereal manipulation, it's highly unlikely that proof would show Sidereals have always been part of the Order. Therefore, the Dragonblood would assume the infiltration is a more recent event, and would take steps in line with them thinking they are the enlightened rulers of Creation!
                    Last edited by TalosX; 08-10-2018, 04:31 PM.

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                    • #11
                      They key thing here is that if a Sidereal chooses to help out a Prince of the Earth to do what he wants to do, why would he turn the Sid down? The assumption that the Sidereal is tricking a DB into doing what the Sidereal wants is where it all falls apart.


                      Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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                      • #12
                        Don't the Sidereals provide astrology and guidance for the Wyld Hunt? Something the dragonbloods are aware they need to do as solars and lunars are a major problem for them the longer they last.

                        I'd expect there to be quite a few vested interests stopping any purge in the higher ranks. Before the sidereal shenanigans even begin.

                        On what they know id expect a fair few to know. Dragonbloods lifetimes combined with exalted power. It demeans the dragonbloods exaltness to not let them know there own history. Especially when ancestry and family history matters so much to there character.

                        Also why would the Sidereals want to hide this? The dragonblood went willingly into service rather than trickery.

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                        • #13
                          "We've had reports of anathema in [location]"

                          "ok, cool"

                          No need to elaborate where they really got the info.

                          Oh, and IIRC Mnemon knows sidereals exist but not a lot else about them.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jam in a jar View Post
                            Don't the Sidereals provide astrology and guidance for the Wyld Hunt? Something the dragonbloods are aware they need to do as solars and lunars are a major problem for them the longer they last.
                            Solars and lunars make a pretty big splash all on their own. Sids giving a nudge helps, but the wyld hunt will work fine without it. The DB have an astounding amount of resources dedicated to finding and killing anathema.
                            Originally posted by Jam in a jar View Post
                            I'd expect there to be quite a few vested interests stopping any purge in the higher ranks. Before the sidereal shenanigans even begin.
                            I'm not honestly sure what you mean by this.
                            Originally posted by Jam in a jar View Post
                            On what they know id expect a fair few to know. Dragonbloods lifetimes combined with exalted power. It demeans the dragonbloods exaltness to not let them know there own history. Especially when ancestry and family history matters so much to there character.
                            A bunch of higher up immaculates know that solars and lunars are exalted as well. They just think that the anathema are cursed to go insane. As for history, a lot can get lost in several centuries of constant war followed by a plague that wiped out 90% of them, followed closely by another creation-wide catastrophy that resulted in a single DB grabbing power and creating an empire based around her own children. If her redness says 'this is history' then most of her family aren't gonna gainsay that.

                            Plus there's also the major magic that the sids worked to obfuscate their roll in everything.
                            Originally posted by Jam in a jar View Post
                            Also why would the Sidereals want to hide this? The dragonblood went willingly into service rather than trickery.
                            ummmm... what?

                            Who do you think the Dragon Bloods are in 'service' to?


                            Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

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                            • #15
                              The truth about the Usurpation isn't hidden to keep the DBs in line. At worst the absolute truth is only kept quiet for the DBs because they don't want to potentially deal with the conflicted emotions that would potentially come from, "So your position a god-like figure comes because of a point where your ancestors and my predecessors decided our bosses were becoming dangerous nutters. So we teamed up and murdered the shit out of them when they didn't expect it. Then we labeled them as kill on sight demon monsters, partially to make it harder for the new one to gain the resources that would let them really become a threat like the ones we killed, but mostly because it kept the general populace in line and not being really pissed off and potentially rebelling against the slaughter and destruction brought about by the conflict."

                              Just way easier to let most of the world believe the demon monster story.

                              As for Sids being found out, well as previously most can probably swing just claiming exigence and you know providing the proper platitudes and explanations to make it clear that they're good as far as Immaculate Doctrine is concerned. Most DBs are unlikely to encounter enough Sids displaying abilities that would reveal their nature to dispute that assertion. When it is a more complex scenario that involves revealing that Sidereal exist and are a faction would probably just explain what they are and try to make sure the phrasing fits into the proper world view.
                              "Okay, I'm called a Sidereal, specifically I'm one of the chosen Secrets. Yes I know its ironic shut up. I and mine are the Chosen of the 5 Maidens, you know the fates. We handle their tasks in ensuring the world goes the way it should ie not screaming towards utter obliteration. We do occasionally have connections with various organizations and they will help us out with things. Mostly it's where cases overlap, you know 'X town has started worshiping a lunar anathema and needs to be stopped' that sort of thing. No we don't run the world, gods know we don't have time to do that even if we wanted to, that's you guys. You're the spiritually enlightened and enhanced beings needed to best make sure everything goes well in the world. We basically just handle it from the otherside, like you all see it when a bunch of villages start violating the Hundred God Heresy. Our job is to deal with it when it turns out the violations are because the gods are extorting the villagers as opposed to a failure on the part of the people. You know how it goes you guys will make the right decision, but if you're given the wrong information that just makes your jobs harder."

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