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2e: Biggest problems fix ?

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  • Meianno Yuurei
    replied
    ^ This, yes. 2e's theory of combat was "Everyone makes attacks and 99% of them are gonna miss anyway because they're just to deplete the mote pool of the target so that the final 1% can instantly splatter them". This resulted in the most boring game of pattycake ever.

    3e's theory of combat is kind of leaning into this; most attacks exist to shift the flow of combat mechanically. Even though you know just the same that the attack isn't going to "hit" in the sense of "it is not going to deal physical damage to their health levels" just the same as 90% of attacks in 2e, the fact that you don't HAVE to worry about "was it a hit or not" means stunts can be more dramatic. The strike that glances off armor and sends them skidding backwards or overhead hammer blow that shatters the ground as they barely escape the blow.

    The attacks are, in-character, fully intended to harm the enemy. We just accept, as an out-of-character conceit, that they aren't going to cause Health Level Harm. They corner the opponent, force them into a disadvantageous position, exhaust them by making them dodge away. They cause harm in the sense that the opponent has to spend motes and potentially loses initiative, maybe gets crashed which puts them into a precarious position for a Final Blow, but not having to go "I'm gonna write this big stunt even thouhg he's just gonna 4m (8m in 2.5) perfect it" means combat stays engaging.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Originally posted by Cruzwindt View Post

    but making a distinction between an attack to really hurt the opponent and one to just make a feint takes away realism and immersion to me.
    A withering attack isn't a feint. Common misconception.

    It's an entirely serious attack that out-of-universe has be preordained to be non lethal for the purposes of cinematography.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Make "multiple attacks" into a damage boost to a single attack that doesn't count versus hardness (as opposed to fierce blows enhancing one attack but making it punch through a bit more). Let social combat and physical combat occur at the same time, so that the perfect defense against someone trying to change your mind is no longer to draw a sword on them (it's not going to keep them from talking). Replace mass combat with 3e's battle groups because it's seriously too good of an idea to not use. Beef up Guard so that it can grant temporary boosts to soak, ablative health levels, halve effective extra attack successes to determine raw damage, or just something to enable even mere mortals hang on just a wee bit longer before Goku gets back from Snake Way - possibly even lasting after the Guard action ends, as long as it took up the full three ticks. Said bonuses, of course, would reset rather than stack if taking another Guard action before the bonuses expired.

    Also, replace most of the Lunar Charms, in terms of mechanics, with Alchemical equivalents. Like 1e, like 2e...

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  • Cruzwindt
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    Mmn. With 3e out people just don't put as much effort into overhauling 2e any more. Why try to fix the old busted system when the new hotness is available?

    Well, my biggest reason is because playing anything else than a DB and a Solar in 3e is pretty much homebrew, my group doesn't usually play solars, so it's DBs or nothing. And I'm one lazy guy to homebrew that much. Dunno if there are already books for those characters out ? It's been a while since I've read anything from 3e.

    Also, and, this is my personal issue with 3e, is that although it fixes many of 2e's problems, despite the craft system but as Wizard said it's easily fixable, I just cannot force myself to like the combat system, sure it's way less broken than the previous editions , but making a distinction between an attack to really hurt the opponent and one to just make a feint takes away realism and immersion to me. I know the combat system needed a total rewrite but this is not exactly what I had in mind. Combat is a big part of exalted and if I homebrew that will not only be titanic, but also wreck the point of using 3e. I hope they find another system of combat that's more immersive if they make a 4ed. Thought I'll have to wait a loooong time for that.

    Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
    Don't! :clap: Nerf! :clap: Perfects! :clap: Before! :clap: Addressing! :clap: Lethality!
    good point haha. Lethality usually isn't a problem in my games since I control the enemies and I don't purposely kill the players if it can be avoided but, you're right. Gotta do something about that. As they've said before, make armor more protective, or perhaps something else.

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  • Simon Darkstep
    replied
    I liked the Ex2 intent in making Excellencies consistent. And I liked the idea of where they were going with Social and Mass (and Social Mass) Combat.

    To unpack that a little: putting rules to a social scene can be tough to do in a RPG. On the one hand, you want to let the roleplay flow, but on the other, have some expectation of how to achieve some objective. Mass combat seemed to reinforce the idea that the Exalted were the movers and shakers on the battlefield, and the extras best stick close. To me, the point where those two fell down was in stretching the basic combat metaphor into shapes that didn't fit.

    My all-time favorite social system is the Sway system from Chronicles of Darkness (Mirrors supplement, I think - don't have my books with me). That's because it's very simple, not even needing turns. Players & Storytellers can judge how much effort & progress they'll need in order to get their way, and the individual steps along the way can be handled by roleplay, existing dice pools, or some combination.

    I like it a bit better than the current Doors system, though Doors did give me some nice ideas to consider.

    Ex3's social system seems really good so far too, and I'm looking forward to working with it if I can ever get my Ex3 game started. In playtesting, though, I found myself going back to Sway, even if just to measure how the Scene was progressing.



    Also, Ex2 wound up with power progression that made it seem easier to bypass story by punching it, and harder to engage with story without accidentally treading on it.

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  • Accelerator
    replied
    I think someone should lower the damage dealt by the weapons. Too much. And increase the soak. And add more health levels.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Very, very important. An Abyssal making a magical flurry of 3-5 attacks with a Grand Goremaul is not something that can be dealt without a paranoia-suite; making the perfect defences cost more isn't really the solution (and honestly, that's one charm plus excellency, so your solution I'm afraid doesn't stop that either, though I can see where you're coming from).

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  • Stephen Lea Sheppard
    replied
    Don't! :clap: Nerf! :clap: Perfects! :clap: Before! :clap: Addressing! :clap: Lethality!

    Leave a comment:


  • armyofwhispers
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    Mmn. With 3e out people just don't put as much effort into overhauling 2e any more. Why try to fix the old busted system when the new hotness is available?
    Especially when pretty much all the problems with the old system are gone. There are new issues and it's but perfect, but the likelihood of a ST doing a TPK by accident is far, far lower

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Mmn. With 3e out people just don't put as much effort into overhauling 2e any more. Why try to fix the old busted system when the new hotness is available?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    I know this is a really trite answer, but I found the best fix for 2nd ed combat and social-fu is 3rd ed. The combats are better balanced, faster and more fun, and the social-fu is more interesting (though it's not quite as different as it looks at first glance, and I don't like the Solar presence and performance trees). I find paranoia combat just isn't a worry.

    3rd ed does have its weaknesses, and there are parts some people hate (the craft system, the reduced emphasis on magitech) but frankly, those are easier to fix than 2nd ed combat.

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