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How to Put a Band-Aid on Infernals

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  • Jen
    replied
    So how do you solve Retribution Will Follow = By Pain Reforge/By Agony Empowered and Raging Behemoth Charge = Wind-Borne Stride ? Just exercise them entirely, rewrite them, or refund XP for people who buy them if they already have BPR/WBS ?

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  • Erinys
    replied
    The proposed Infernal Hero Style would fit much better than Solar Hero Style, for sure.
    I would say that Infernal Hero and Infernal Monster should both start out as native charms... until you learn a certain number of charms in one style (before you get to the form charm, I think) at which point you lose access to the other one.


    Anyway, my question again: Does Vance's errata do enough to fix the 2.5 issues with Infernals, or do they still need something more to work in 2.5?

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  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post
    Now you're splitting hairs.
    Possibly, but I feel as though I'm trying to explain the difference between breathing and not breathing. The differences between "charms you get from the yozis" and "charms you get just by virtue of being an Infernal" are crystal clear to me and I don't know what isn't getting across.

    I take exception to the idea that IMS is somehow external to the nature of Infernal Exalted.
    You go ahead and do that but I'm not going to agree with you. Even if it were, that's all the more reason to give them Solar Hero Style or a proper Infernal Hero Style as an alternative to forcing them to become and act like yozi slaves.
    Last edited by HK-87; 05-09-2014, 10:16 PM.

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  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    Sort of but not really. When you buy Emerald Angel Unfurling you're combining the essence and themes of Malfeas and SWLIHN. The result is unique to the Infernals but it still comes from the powers that the yozis gave them to emulate Malfeas and SWLIHN.
    Now you're splitting hairs. Heresy may key off Yozi Charms, but it outgrows them into something only Infernals can access by their nature as Exalted - it's almost the definition of Exalted Charms. They have weird aesthetics, but that's because GSPs are weird Exalted.

    Infernal Hero Style doesn't emulate the yozis in any respect because it reflects the nature and fighting style of the Infernal Exalted, to the same extent that Solar Hero Style is the natural fighting style of the Solars rather than the Unconquered Sun. The yozis could never have invented it since they can't grok to the idea of emulating anything besides themselves. The Infernal Monster, likewise, emulates something external to the Infernals, the idea of The Old Thing in the Cave. Infernal Hero Style is unique to the Infernals, and to the extent that other splats can learn it they learn how to fight like tarnished and dishonored warriors who've been kicked in the balls one time too many and are starting to kick back.
    I take exception to the idea that IMS is somehow external to the nature of Infernal Exalted. It embodies what they are at their core, what the Yozis made Infernals to be - monstrous tools of horrible, mindless revenge. Infernals can act against what they are and ultimately outgrow their planned fate, but they cannot deny it.

    Also worth noting, "got kicked in the balls one time too many and is starting to kick back" is pretty much the life story of Bruce Banner a.k.a. Hulk.

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  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Exthalion View Post

    The Infernal Monster is not a generic Infernal style, it has its own aesthetic and predates the Green Sun Princes by centuries. It has its own Shintai which is essentially, "Mindless Yozi Slave". It might reflect a specific conception of Infernal Exalted, but the depiction cleaves closer conceptually to Akuma then the Princes of Hell.
    That's what I meant. Infernal Monster is external to the Infernals -- when you learn Infernal Monster, you learn how to fight like the Infernal Monster. But the Monster and the Infernal are two completely different things; a native martial art for Infernals should be thematically aligned with the Infernals, not with something external to them like the infernal monster. Really, IM has no business being a native martial art for any Exalt type besides maybe the Akuma.

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  • Dezeroth
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    Sort of but not really. When you buy Emerald Angel Unfurling you're combining the essence and themes of Malfeas and SWLIHN. The result is unique to the Infernals but it still comes from the powers that the yozis gave them to emulate Malfeas and SWLIHN.

    Infernal Hero Style doesn't emulate the yozis in any respect because it reflects the nature and fighting style of the Infernal Exalted, to the same extent that Solar Hero Style is the natural fighting style of the Solars rather than the Unconquered Sun. The yozis could never have invented it since they can't grok to the idea of emulating anything besides themselves. The Infernal Monster, likewise, emulates something external to the Infernals, the idea of The Old Thing in the Cave. Infernal Hero Style is unique to the Infernals, and to the extent that other splats can learn it they learn how to fight like tarnished and dishonored warriors who've been kicked in the balls one time too many and are starting to kick back.
    from what I've read of infernal monster style is it pretty much mimics malfeas charms and asthetics and makes you a yozi bitch, it was made by an akuma for akuma and infernals should have gotten something better

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  • Exthalion
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    Sort of but not really. When you buy Emerald Angel Unfurling you're combining the essence and themes of Malfeas and SWLIHN. The result is unique to the Infernals but it still comes from the powers that the yozis gave them to emulate Malfeas and SWLIHN.

    Infernal Hero Style doesn't emulate the yozis in any respect because it reflects the nature and fighting style of the Infernal Exalted, to the same extent that Solar Hero Style is the natural fighting style of the Solars rather than the Unconquered Sun. The yozis could never have invented it since they can't grok to the idea of emulating anything besides themselves. The Infernal Monster, likewise, emulates something external to the Infernals, the idea of The Old Thing in the Cave. Infernal Hero Style is unique to the Infernals, and to the extent that other splats can learn it they learn how to fight like tarnished and dishonored warriors who've been kicked in the balls one time too many and are starting to kick back.
    The Infernal Monster is not a generic Infernal style, it has its own aesthetic and predates the Green Sun Princes by centuries. It has its own Shintai which is essentially, "Mindless Yozi Slave". It might reflect a specific conception of Infernal Exalted, but the depiction cleaves closer conceptually to Akuma then the Princes of Hell.

    Leave a comment:


  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post
    So do Heretical Charms.
    Sort of but not really. When you buy Emerald Angel Unfurling you're combining the essence and themes of Malfeas and SWLIHN. The result is unique to the Infernals but it still comes from the powers that the yozis gave them to emulate Malfeas and SWLIHN.

    Infernal Hero Style doesn't emulate the yozis in any respect because it reflects the nature and fighting style of the Infernal Exalted, to the same extent that Solar Hero Style is the natural fighting style of the Solars rather than the Unconquered Sun. The yozis could never have invented it since they can't grok to the idea of emulating anything besides themselves. The Infernal Monster, likewise, emulates something external to the Infernals, the idea of The Old Thing in the Cave. Infernal Hero Style is unique to the Infernals, and to the extent that other splats can learn it they learn how to fight like tarnished and dishonored warriors who've been kicked in the balls one time too many and are starting to kick back.
    Last edited by HK-87; 05-09-2014, 09:25 PM.

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  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    The difference is that yozi charms give you the power of the yozis, but Infernal Hero Style gives you the power of the Infernals.
    So do Heretical Charms.

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  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Brasstreader View Post

    You don't want Yozi Charms, you don't want the Incredible Hulk,...
    What are you looking for, as an emulation, in your Infernal Martial Arts? What image is coming to your mind?
    I'm genuinely curious.
    I dreamed up this ruling mostly for the benefit of a single character, who was a Malfeas/Isidoros mixed brawler. For his purposes, what came to mind was Solar Hero Style. It was important for his development that he have something in his charm spread that anchored him to his humanity -- insofar as he ever thought about the subject, his yozi charms were not a rejection of his humanity but an expansion on it, to the same degree that Peter Parker didn't suddenly turn into a spider just because he gained spider-themed superpowers. For him it was enough to pick up Fist of the Daystar and then refluff it slightly with tarnished brass rather than orichalcum.

    If I were willing to put more work into developing the style into something new, I would work off of the same idea of the tarnished hero, the failure who rose again to reclaim the glory his enemies denied him. Infernal Hero Style would start with defensive charms, the idea of the pre-form being "he who runs away lives to fight another day" or something of that nature. So probably soak-boosters and a flurry-breaker or something.

    The form charm would give a slight mote drain effect to some of the Infernal's attacks. Thematically, this is the core of the style -- taking power wherever you can grab it from in order to accomplish your goals, the one thing that every Green Sun Prince has done before in a pivotal moment. The post-form charms are all about fighting dirty with weird tricks and tactics that a Solar Hero would never stoop to; it's straight up face-to-face combat as opposed to something like Black Claw style, but in use it looks sort of like First Pulse. Flinging sand in your opponent's eyes, kicking them in the balls for a crippling effect (works on girls too), using and enhancing the use of improvised weapons, stuff like that.

    The capstone would mark the point where the hero reclaims his dignity and starts to turn into something else. The style's expansion charms would mold the hero into one thing or another depending on which tree he pursues; one might give bonuses to your virtue channels and emphasize that the Infernal is a human at his core, while another might have warping effects similar to yozi charms as the Infernal develops into something new and inhuman. Revlid's Asura charms that let you grow multiple arms and turn into a statue to escape death and such could possibly go here.

    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post

    What's the difference?
    The difference is that yozi charms give you the power of the yozis, but Infernal Hero Style gives you the power of the Infernals.
    Last edited by HK-87; 05-09-2014, 08:38 PM.

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  • Kyeudo
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    My goal was a tree of native martial arts charms for Infernals, not more yozi charms that happen to enhance unarmed attacks.
    What's the difference?

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  • Brasstreader
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    My goal was a tree of native martial arts charms for Infernals, not more yozi charms that happen to enhance unarmed attacks.
    You don't want Yozi Charms, you don't want the Incredible Hulk,...
    What are you looking for, as an emulation, in your Infernal Martial Arts? What image is coming to your mind?
    I'm genuinely curious.

    Leave a comment:


  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Kyeudo View Post
    And Yozi Charms are some of the most flexible when it comes to applicability. Just blend some Adorjan Charms for close-combat attacks with Malfeas Charms for brutal strength or She Who Lives In Her Name for inhuman precision. Instant non-Martial Arts martial arts charms.
    My goal was a tree of native martial arts charms for Infernals, not more yozi charms that happen to enhance unarmed attacks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    Mechanically, I use Chung's Fist of the Daystar rewrite so it's a significant power boost over Infernal Monster. Fluffwise, I wanted Infernals to have a martial arts option that didn't force them to be the Incredible Hulk but was also power-appropriate for Solaroid charms.
    Notably, Infernals benefit from martial arts much more than other Solaroids.

    Which, come to think of it, should have been a dead giveaway that something's wrong with them even before 2.5, given the state of MA Styles.

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  • Kyeudo
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    And Heretical charms have to be built off of yozi charms.
    And Yozi Charms are some of the most flexible when it comes to applicability. Just blend some Adorjan Charms for close-combat attacks with Malfeas Charms for brutal strength or She Who Lives In Her Name for inhuman precision. Instant non-Martial Arts martial arts charms.

    Leave a comment:

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