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How to Put a Band-Aid on Infernals

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  • HK-87
    started a topic How to Put a Band-Aid on Infernals

    How to Put a Band-Aid on Infernals

    So we all know that 2.5 breaks Infernals wide open, and that the charm set is broken in some really awful ways that can't really be fixed without completely rewriting the charmset. But are there any patches you've ever thought of that could alleviate some of these issues? I was wondering about things like "giving all yozis the 'favored' EXP discount" to increase the flexibility of available builds.

  • Robert Vance
    replied
    Originally posted by Exthalion View Post

    I know there are way too many charms and it would be far too much work to go through all of them, but do you have any notes on what motivated any of the changes?
    Generally "this Charm kinda sucks/is kinda overpowered" or "X Yozi really needs some more offensive/defensive effects now that they can't just hang everything on a PD."

    Leave a comment:


  • Exthalion
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
    Hell no way does it fix them entirely. Just makes combat builds other than Malfeas/Adorjan a bit more oomphy.
    I know there are way too many charms and it would be far too much work to go through all of them, but do you have any notes on what motivated any of the changes?

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert Vance
    replied
    Originally posted by Erinys View Post
    Anyway, my question again: Does Vance's errata do enough to fix the 2.5 issues with Infernals, or do they still need something more to work in 2.5?
    Hell no way does it fix them entirely. Just makes combat builds other than Malfeas/Adorjan a bit more oomphy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Erinys
    replied
    I love Devil-Tigers and I'm in support of giving Green Sun Princes of all stripes the necessary combat charms without requiring them to pick specific Yozi. But I don't want to strip the Yozi influence from them entirely.

    Leave a comment:


  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Brasstreader View Post

    I know you can counteract, say, Murder is Meat with Tragic Love Amusement, but how does one counter Witness to Darkness? Nightmare Fugue? Cosmic Transcendence of X?
    Nightmare Fugue Vigilance is countered by Indomitable Hedonism Drive from Revlid's Isidoros set, which gives you an automatic success on your roll to restore willpower so long as you've indulged in one of your desirous intimacies before sleeping. Witness to Darkness is countered by not taking it because fuck the Ebon Dragon. Likewise for Cosmic Transcendence, which isn't a prerequisite for anything. Alternatively there's this old thing, which lets you twist yozi themes and mechanical effects so they warp you in ways you wanted to be warped anyways.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brasstreader
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    Whether they are inhuman or more than human is entirely up to the Infernal. If you don't want to be inhuman then you avoid the gateway charms that cause weird permanent transformations, or you find other charms that counteract them.
    I know you can counteract, say, Murder is Meat with Tragic Love Amusement, but how does one counter Witness to Darkness? Nightmare Fugue? Cosmic Transcendence of X?
    Unfortunately, one must either become a martial artist, a sorceror, or a monster as an Infernal. Albeit a monster for good. Even the few Devil-Tigers I've seen flushed out, whose excellencies state their benevolent intentions, go about it in ways which seem to imply a deep connection with psychopathy, sociopathy, or self-enforced brainwashing bordering on omni-directional paraphillia.

    So I suppose, in a way, you don't have to be a monster to play an Infernal. You just have to be diagnosable as having a severe mental disorder, in some form or fashion, by the DSM-V. You get disorder-related superpowers, but you're not 'sane' (see, there's that word I hate so much. 'Sane'.)

    Leave a comment:


  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post
    It seems to me you want an option for Infernals that doesn't involve the Yozis in any way.
    This is about half the point of Infernal Hero Style, yes. It springs 100% from the essence of the Infernal and owes nothing to the yozis, least of all its creation. The other half is that it provides a grounding for masters of the style, that even with green fire burning in their eyes and a second soul living in their heads the core of their being is still human and every charm they will ever take is an expansion on that humanity rather than a rejection of it.

    Which I find misguided, seeing how they're the guys who created the Infernal Exaltations and lent their themes to them the same way UCS lent his themes of resplendent glory and perfection to the Solar Exaltations he created.
    Yozi charms are neat in some ways and annoying in others, but the end point of every Infernal I've ever made lies in the devil-tiger charm tree. The appeal that this splat has for me isn't in being weird and Cthulhuish but in ultimately providing a path that leads to becoming self-Exalted -- not by the judgement of the sun or the scheming of the yozis but by your own volition, bearing charms with your themes and your name stamped on them rather than someone else's.

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  • Morangias
    replied
    It seems to me you want an option for Infernals that doesn't involve the Yozis in any way. Which I find misguided, seeing how they're the guys who created the Infernal Exaltations and lent their themes to them the same way UCS lent his themes of resplendent glory and perfection to the Solar Exaltations he created.

    Anyway, your game, your rules.

    Leave a comment:


  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Erinys View Post
    Welll.... it depends what you mean by "monster."

    They don't have to be evil psychos. But they don't really have the option of being normal human beings, even in the sense that other Exalted are normal. They're fundamentally in-human in ways that can't be changed without taking away a core part of the splat.
    Whether they are inhuman or more than human is entirely up to the Infernal. If you don't want to be inhuman then you avoid the gateway charms that cause weird permanent transformations, or you find other charms that counteract them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Erinys
    replied
    Welll.... it depends what you mean by "monster."

    They don't have to be evil psychos. But they don't really have the option of being normal human beings, even in the sense that other Exalted are normal. They're fundamentally in-human in ways that can't be changed without taking away a core part of the splat.

    Leave a comment:


  • HK-87
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post
    I think the problem is "just by virtue of being Infernals", the bolded word creating a distinction between MA expansions and Heresy Charms that only exists in your head. If anything, Heretical Charms are more a Green Sun Princes' own thing, seeing how all Akuma get the same level of native access to IMS.
    If the yozis had for some reason created the Infernals but not given them access to any of their charm sets there would not be any heretical charms. There would still be native martial arts trees though, because those are ability charms that don't depend on the approval of a yozi for the Infernal to learn them.

    Your game and all that, but this suggests to me a fundamental misunderstanding of the GSP story arc. Where Abyssals have a clear cut choice between being a hero and a monster, GSPs are always monsters, but ones able to tell their creators to fuck off and do their own thing. (This of course subject to change come 3e).
    Whatever intentions the yozis had in creating them are irrelevant. Whatever their enemies call them is irrelevant. Infernals define themselves. They are monsters only if they choose to be monsters.

    Leave a comment:


  • FearMeForIAmPink
    replied
    Errata comments files for these are done.

    Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals
    The Broken-Winged Crane


    Slightly more rushed, and since I was doing them on a 'clean' PDF, checking they didn't hit the Scroll of Errata comments by eye, they're not quite so nicely lined up.

    This errata is done in green stars, so it's distinguishable from the other stuff. I've added the errata to existing charms next to those charms, as I did with the original errata-as-comments, the new charms (that aren't "Replace this charm, even its name) I've added to the charm trees, with arrows distinguishing where they come from (and a dotted arrow to indicate the excellency requirement on one of them).

    If there's a particular demand for it, or people's PDF readers are having trouble applying two errata comments files, then I can make a version that combines this with the original errata comments for Infernals. Otherwise, it just seems easier for people to apply both themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by HK-87 View Post
    Possibly, but I feel as though I'm trying to explain the difference between breathing and not breathing. The differences between "charms you get from the yozis" and "charms you get just by virtue of being an Infernal" are crystal clear to me and I don't know what isn't getting across.
    I think the problem is "just by virtue of being Infernals", the bolded word creating a distinction between MA expansions and Heresy Charms that only exists in your head. If anything, Heretical Charms are more a Green Sun Princes' own thing, seeing how all Akuma get the same level of native access to IMS.


    You go ahead and do that but I'm not going to agree with you. Even if it were, that's all the more reason to give them Solar Hero Style or a proper Infernal Hero Style as an alternative to forcing them to become and act like yozi slaves.
    Your game and all that, but this suggests to me a fundamental misunderstanding of the GSP story arc. Where Abyssals have a clear cut choice between being a hero and a monster, GSPs are always monsters, but ones able to tell their creators to fuck off and do their own thing. (This of course subject to change come 3e).

    Leave a comment:


  • Exthalion
    replied
    Originally posted by Erinys View Post
    The proposed Infernal Hero Style would fit much better than Solar Hero Style, for sure.
    I would say that Infernal Hero and Infernal Monster should both start out as native charms... until you learn a certain number of charms in one style (before you get to the form charm, I think) at which point you lose access to the other one.


    Anyway, my question again: Does Vance's errata do enough to fix the 2.5 issues with Infernals, or do they still need something more to work in 2.5?
    Discussion on Giantitp came to the conclusion that it makes MHM too powerful and the Cecelyne damage reducer is too good.

    Leave a comment:

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