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Does the wyld(pure chaos) also include the "things" that exist in the Beyond?

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  • Does the wyld(pure chaos) also include the "things" that exist in the Beyond?

    pure chaos is supposed to be about infinite potential so wouldn't it include, by definition, all the concepts that are not in Creation?.

  • #2
    I don't think so.
    Pure Chaos has it's potential seriously limited, for example it's shackled to Creation's notion of linear time so you can't hop into it and emerge before you left you also can't put a corpse in there and expect it to get resurrected because that's a rule of the universe that even the wyld has to obey. Pure Chaos is something the PCs might interact with, it's building material for a Solar with Wyld Shaping Technique while the Beyond is more of a vehicle for the Storyteller to employ narrative licence.



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    • #3
      Do I want to go back and examine Nephilpal's methods of describing the idea of the Beyond...

      I think that, as it was most thoroughly explained, the Beyond was intended to contain "things" that you wouldn't find in the Wyld.

      I think that overall, the approach to the infinite potential of Pure Chaos is most functional when it's seen in terms of a kind of nebulous potential that can generate a lot of outcomes when specifically interacted with, rather than everything that could possibly exist being out there in coherent form.


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      • #4
        In 3e the wyld only really goes as far as deep so pure chaos essentially is The Beyond.

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        • #5
          It's a good place to go if your story needs you to meet yourself, having made different decisions.


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          • #6
            2E answer: everything exists in the overlap of different Shinma. Pure Chaos refers to everything within the overlay of the same Shinma as Creation but without any of Creation’s stabilizing influence (other than the universal reference point for “before” and “after” that makes time travel impossible). There may be other pockets of stability within Pure Chaos creating alien environments. These are the Far Away.

            The Beyond refers to anything and everything beyond the definitions of any given known Shinma and/or under the influence of some other Shinma that Creation doesn’t fall under. There is no language we can use to communicate the concepts.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
              2E answer: everything exists in the overlap of different Shinma. Pure Chaos refers to everything within the overlay of the same Shinma as Creation but without any of Creation’s stabilizing influence (other than the universal reference point for “before” and “after” that makes time travel impossible). There may be other pockets of stability within Pure Chaos creating alien environments. These are the Far Away.

              The Beyond refers to anything and everything beyond the definitions of any given known Shinma and/or under the influence of some other Shinma that Creation doesn’t fall under. There is no language we can use to communicate the concepts.
              Then how did the primordials interact with the wyld before they built Creation? After all it was only during the making of the universe that Oramus decided what would, and what would not be. Just doesn't make sense in my opinion

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              • #8
                Originally posted by mark View Post

                Then how did the primordials interact with the wyld before they built Creation? After all it was only during the making of the universe that Oramus decided what would, and what would not be. Just doesn't make sense in my opinion
                What do you mean? Pure Chaos in 2E is the deepest most undiluted Wyld. That was the default state of the universe the Primordial interacted with before Creation. Oramus is weird and also perceived and interacts with the Beyond, defining the boundary between the Beyond and everything else. As none of the other Primordials predate Oramus, it’s impossible to say what existence was like “before” he defined said boundary, if there even is such a thing as “before Oramus”.


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                • #9
                  here is the easiest way for me to understand it wyld = anything that could exist beyond = things that aren't supposed to exist but somehow do but they aren't even able to exist in the wyld

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                    What do you mean? Pure Chaos in 2E is the deepest most undiluted Wyld. That was the default state of the universe the Primordial interacted with before Creation. Oramus is weird and also perceived and interacts with the Beyond, defining the boundary between the Beyond and everything else. As none of the other Primordials predate Oramus, it’s impossible to say what existence was like “before” he defined said boundary, if there even is such a thing as “before Oramus”.
                    i was under the impression that the Oramus only defined what would and what would not be only ONCE creation was actually built(or when the process started,whatever) and that the primordials anchored creation with a specific set of shinma

                    Presumabely this means that(since even pure chaos is affected by creation) before they did this,the wyld was not limited in this way.

                    Since the primordials had interactions with the wyld i assume they were able to perceive these things back then.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                      In 3e the wyld only really goes as far as deep so pure chaos essentially is The Beyond.
                      In my earlier post I was using the 2e definition of Pure Chaos which was interchangeable with the Deep Wyld.
                      However, this makes me wonder if hypothetically a true Pure Chaos could still exist somewhere out in the Wyld as the kind of place where even its rules go out the window that beings occasionally quest for and never return. Perhaps they're annihilated by experiencing every moment and every possibility at once or maybe they got exactly what they wanted and the timeline already reflects this?


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                      • #12
                        Pure Chaos is the wyld free of creation's influence.

                        Which in includes having a small, character-shaped chunk of it running around.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mark View Post
                          i was under the impression that the Oramus only defined what would and what would not be only ONCE creation was actually built(or when the process started,whatever) and that the primordials anchored creation with a specific set of shinma

                          Presumabely this means that(since even pure chaos is affected by creation) before they did this,the wyld was not limited in this way.

                          Since the primordials had interactions with the wyld i assume they were able to perceive these things back then.
                          I'd have to go look it up to be sure, but I'm pretty sure Oramus either created the idea that time could exist in distinct moments, or was the first thing to come into existence as the result of that event. Either way whatever event in the Wyld that could be described as first, Oramus was there.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mark View Post
                            i was under the impression that the Oramus only defined what would and what would not be only ONCE creation was actually built(or when the process started,whatever) and that the primordials anchored creation with a specific set of shinma

                            Presumabely this means that(since even pure chaos is affected by creation) before they did this,the wyld was not limited in this way.

                            Since the primordials had interactions with the wyld i assume they were able to perceive these things back then.
                            What manifold Lovecraftian god monsters are able to perceive has very little bearing on my point about what is expressable by and to human beings.
                            Last edited by glamourweaver; 09-08-2018, 07:11 PM.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mark View Post
                              Then how did the primordials interact with the wyld before they built Creation? After all it was only during the making of the universe that Oramus decided what would, and what would not be. Just doesn't make sense in my opinion
                              In 2nd edition (and to a degree 1st edition) when the Primordials made Creation it completely altered the fundamental nature of the Wyld. The Wyld that existed before Creation and the Wyld that existed after Creation were different, and this was one of the reasons why the Unshaped wanted to destroy Creation, so that the Wyld could function as used to.

                              So what was the Wyld like before the Primordials designed Creation? Things like linear time, cause and effect, etc didn't exist but honestly I don't know that it really matters. It's enough to say it was different in some aspect, but the only way to find out is to literally destroy every aspect of Creation which is probably not something that will come up in most games.
                              Last edited by AnubisXy; 09-09-2018, 11:36 AM.

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