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Traditional gender roles in the realm.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post

    Do you feel up to turning the feeling into a thought and the thought into a sentence or a paragraph?
    In this particular case control groups are unnecessary anyway. If there was such a large discrepancy in height, weight and bone structure based on nutrition and exercise then differences in class and culture would lead to pretty obvious differences. Even differences on an individual basis with every super athletic girl ending up not looking like a 6'2" shaved gorilla, as the guys do. Eating properly and exercising absolutely IS a factor, and in a culture run by women that value martial ability you'll see some gain over what we have now, but it's not going to turn Ariana Grande into Hafthor Bjornson.

    Now, that being said there actually are some genetic benefits that women tend to have more often than men, such as high endurance to extended physical labor, like say, trekking across the threshold in full heavy infantry gear. THAT could definitely lead to some not-totally-baseless sexism where the female commanders are rolling their eyes at the men, who are already panting halfway through the day's march. Sample size of one but I've seen this myself out hiking, the guys, especially the super big powerful guys, were totally spent by the end of the day. Lugging a massive 280 pound frame up and down hills all day burns some serious energy already, and that's before their natural male inefficiencies.

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    I think at that point, chimps have a greater degree of political savvy. They actually have to cut deals and make alliances to get on top in a troop, after all...
    Yeah, as far as social animals are concerned the leaders tend to need to be actually sociable, because the problem is if the second strongest monkey who's got friends showed up with three of his buddies when the strongest asshole monkey is having a bit of an off day that's pretty well the end of that. You can be an asshole and a leader, but you can't be so much of an asshole that everyone hates you, because you'll never be strong enough to fight everyone else. Unless you're a Solar.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
      You can be an asshole and a leader, but you can't be so much of an asshole that everyone hates you, because you'll never be strong enough to fight everyone else. Unless you're a Solar.
      And even that is seriously up for debate. Last tine Creation saw a Solars vs. Everyone Else throwdown, the Solars lost.

      In the current age, Immaculate Monks are the second strongest monkey with a few friends, and a lone Solar should probably avoid engaging three of them at once if they can help it.

      Remember, if your people see you as a raging asshole god-king, there are people they can go to who'd gladly take care of that for them.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Amayad View Post

        And even that is seriously up for debate. Last tine Creation saw a Solars vs. Everyone Else throwdown, the Solars lost.
        Hah, I walked right into that one, that’s what I get for posting at 4am. Yeah this edition especially highlights that even the Solar Exalted can’t get to the very top all alone.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

          In this particular case control groups are unnecessary anyway. If there was such a large discrepancy in height, weight and bone structure based on nutrition and exercise then differences in class and culture would lead to pretty obvious differences. Even differences on an individual basis with every super athletic girl ending up not looking like a 6'2" shaved gorilla, as the guys do. Eating properly and exercising absolutely IS a factor, and in a culture run by women that value martial ability you'll see some gain over what we have now, but it's not going to turn Ariana Grande into Hafthor Bjornson.
          The nutrition was only ever part of it. The other components had to do with stress and constant use of energy to deal with dumb shit placed in the way as an obstacle. To get a clear reading on that, you have to clear away the obstacles, and that would mean observations taken in a place where none of the present cultural biases are coming into play, which is the difficult, time-consuming, and likely quite expensive part. You would need to have a location completely free of modern systemic issues, which, being systemic, are difficult to eliminate running experiments as-is.

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          • #65
            Yes, the importance of a control group being that the removal of variables that are not being measured in the experiment allows you to accurately assess how they correlate to your results means that an observationt in which a control group is difficult or virtually impossible needs to be necessarily be considered of limited utility.

            It's not about comparisons to hypothetical alternative modes of existence and reality.

            It's why a lot of preliminary cancer research involves genetically engineering model organisms with little immunity and a predisposition to cancer; to most effectively assess the treatments on trial, we need to ensure that the organism's own system isn't doing all the work.


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

              The nutrition was only ever part of it. The other components had to do with stress and constant use of energy to deal with dumb shit placed in the way as an obstacle. To get a clear reading on that, you have to clear away the obstacles, and that would mean observations taken in a place where none of the present cultural biases are coming into play, which is the difficult, time-consuming, and likely quite expensive part.
              Not to mention good luck getting THAT past the ethics committee.

              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
              You would need to have a location completely free of modern systemic issues, which, being systemic, are difficult to eliminate running experiments as-is.
              That certainly is the ideal, but it’s not always available as an option and often even if it’s technically available it’s unethical. For example the dream for a pathologist is to have a bunch of people that they can infect with various pathogens under various conditions and know exactly the time of initial exposure, the conditions, and have a good spread among age groups and other complicating health issues to properly map the effects of a disease. For instance if you found a new virus and suspected that people with a prior serious chest infection were particularly vulnerable to its symptoms you would have one group of former chest infected patients and a control group of previously healthy ones, then you infect both groups at the same time and study the effects.

              Of course this is grossly unethical, but it doesn’t mean that pathology is junk science, we just need to look at a lot more examples and change the way we perform studies.

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              • #67
                To take somewhat of a different track, what sort of stories and scenes would you like to pull out of this topic?

                For instance, if you really want to highlight that the Realm is Very Different (tm) from what we're used to, that would give you something to work backward from, to pick out a few relevant details to showcase.


                Check out Momentum Exalted!

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Simon Darkstep View Post
                  To take somewhat of a different track, what sort of stories and scenes would you like to pull out of this topic?

                  For instance, if you really want to highlight that the Realm is Very Different (tm) from what we're used to, that would give you something to work backward from, to pick out a few relevant details to showcase.
                  I think personally it might work better as a subtle thing. One of the balancing acts here is kind of like with that LGBT acceptance in the Realm. On the one hand in the realistic fallen socially regressive, racist, sexist, classist, nepotism rife, extractionist empire it seems an odd contrast that acceptance for genderfluid individuals is universal and never questioned, but on the other it’s really lame if you are or just want to play somebody who’s trans or bisexual and the game says you’re going to be ridiculed endlessly for it.

                  Realistically the Realm could end up being shockingly sexist, where a female mortal would have a better chance of being promoted to manager/officer than a male exalt simply because men aren’t officer material and everyone knows it. Which kind of sucks for anyone who wants to play a man in the game unless they’re looking to smash the matriarchy as a personal goal. Rather I suggest being really subtle about it, let your players get 15 sessions into the game and realize only one of the officials they’ve talked to has been male, or have a scene where the male members of a house shut up and retreat from the conversation when a female representative from their house shows up, even if they’re technically not any more in charge.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                    I think personally it might work better as a subtle thing. One of the balancing acts here is kind of like with that LGBT acceptance in the Realm. On the one hand in the realistic fallen socially regressive, racist, sexist, classist, nepotism rife, extractionist empire it seems an odd contrast that acceptance for genderfluid individuals is universal and never questioned, but on the other it’s really lame if you are or just want to play somebody who’s trans or bisexual and the game says you’re going to be ridiculed endlessly for it.

                    Realistically the Realm could end up being shockingly sexist, where a female mortal would have a better chance of being promoted to manager/officer than a male exalt simply because men aren’t officer material and everyone knows it. Which kind of sucks for anyone who wants to play a man in the game unless they’re looking to smash the matriarchy as a personal goal. Rather I suggest being really subtle about it, let your players get 15 sessions into the game and realize only one of the officials they’ve talked to has been male, or have a scene where the male members of a house shut up and retreat from the conversation when a female representative from their house shows up, even if they’re technically not any more in charge.
                    In earlier editions, it mentions it 'being like today, but the other way'. Which is easy to dismiss just how shocking that might be to a man from our culture - without delving *too* far into real-world things, note the recent hearings for the new Supreme Court seat in the US had an awful lot of older white men questioning a woman, at one point.

                    That seems very normal to many people, but turning it around to (say) your male player-character reporting some malfeasance to the local nobles of note... who all happen to be middle-aged women of the same House... the House the PC does not belong to... could certainly shake up a lot of people in a subtle way, which is probably why the manuscript writes up the actual Great Houses in a similar way.

                    As for the related LBGT acceptance, while there's a Doylist reason - we're playing a game in the real world where the authors and, I hope, more of the player base wish to accomodate folks - don't forget the Realm is the product of at least two world-ending events, with centuries of research into the makeup of human beings being done by very intelligent Exalted scholars surviving even to the fallen Age of Sorrows. Even with a more ancient-world understanding of "gay is something you do, not something you are" the idea that it's not as simple as a couple of boxes is going to get rubbed in the face of any Dragon-blood who cares to look, to say nothing of the panopoly of supernatural beings, many of which have no certain genders or don't map so cleanly to the male/female axis. So the current status quo of "what you do in your free time is your business, but you *will* produce an heir for the good of the Realm" seems a reasonable compromise.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Aliasi View Post
                      In earlier editions, it mentions it 'being like today, but the other way'.
                      I'm a bit curious about that statement. Do you have a page reference for where I can look closer at that?

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                        I think personally it might work better as a subtle thing. One of the balancing acts here is kind of like with that LGBT acceptance in the Realm. On the one hand in the realistic fallen socially regressive, racist, sexist, classist, nepotism rife, extractionist empire it seems an odd contrast that acceptance for genderfluid individuals is universal and never questioned, but on the other it’s really lame if you are or just want to play somebody who’s trans or bisexual and the game says you’re going to be ridiculed endlessly for it.
                        Hmmm...

                        There are ways of responding to this point, but they depend on whether or not you're using the term "genderfluid" correctly.

                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey
                        Realistically the Realm could end up being shockingly sexist, where a female mortal would have a better chance of being promoted to manager/officer than a male exalt simply because men aren’t officer material and everyone knows it. Which kind of sucks for anyone who wants to play a man in the game
                        Heh.

                        "I can't see a thing!"
                        "Oh no, what a nightmare."
                        "Sorry."

                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey
                        Rather I suggest being really subtle about it, let your players get 15 sessions into the game and realize only one of the officials they’ve talked to has been male, or have a scene where the male members of a house shut up and retreat from the conversation when a female representative from their house shows up, even if they’re technically not any more in charge.
                        Well, to the extent that the glass ceiling is a particularly subtle thing, I articulated a sense of it in the setting that men will always have limited advancement in their birth House because of the expectation that they'll be sent away, and limited in their marriage House because they're still basically outsiders. Men of rank exist in the Realm, but it's generally something they have to work twice as hard at.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                          I'm a bit curious about that statement. Do you have a page reference for where I can look closer at that?
                          I believe putting it precisely this way was me paraphrasing the 2nd edition, but the gender bias of the Realm has been there since 1st edition. An easy quote within a quick look at my 1e DB book from the sidebar on p148:

                          "In the Realm, gender takes a back seat to position within the Perfected Hierarchy. Terrestrial Exaltation occurs with equal frequency to both men and women (...) There is some persistent discrimination against men, but it's more of a glass ceiling then a genuine limit - men are generally paid slightly less, promoted less frequently and treated as somewhat irresponsible, but individual circumstance often differs from the norm."

                          I'm having a little more trouble pulling a reference in 2e, as the first few search terms that come to mind aren't pulling up much and the actual Blessed Isle book is among the most tedious and boring books in the entire line. So it might be from an online discussion, instead. Hey, it's been nearly 18 years here, that's a lot of time for stuff to get muddled in one's head.

                          As it happens, while not called by that name, the root idea of progenitive essence is there, too - it's mentioned that Dragon-blooded women, for best health, need about five years between pregnancies; doing so sooner tends to age the woman unnaturally quickly.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Aliasi View Post
                            As it happens, while not called by that name, the root idea of progenitive essence is there, too - it's mentioned that Dragon-blooded women, for best health, need about five years between pregnancies; doing so sooner tends to age the woman unnaturally quickly.
                            That didn't really concern itself with Exaltation rate (which prior Editions never effectively conveyed), and more general obstetric health. The logic was that longer lifespan meant that certain biological processes were stretched out, so the two-year recovery period recommended for women was doubled. Doing otherwise was likely to result in complications and defects.

                            That whole aging thing was Second Edition conflating some details; the original book referred to an instance of a specific individual woman who probably employed sorcery to adjust her biology to a mortal birthing cycle, and inadvertently gave herself the lifespan as well.


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Aliasi View Post

                              In earlier editions, it mentions it 'being like today, but the other way'. Which is easy to dismiss just how shocking that might be to a man from our culture - without delving *too* far into real-world things, note the recent hearings for the new Supreme Court seat in the US had an awful lot of older white men questioning a woman, at one point.

                              That seems very normal to many people, but turning it around to (say) your male player-character reporting some malfeasance to the local nobles of note... who all happen to be middle-aged women of the same House... the House the PC does not belong to... could certainly shake up a lot of people in a subtle way, which is probably why the manuscript writes up the actual Great Houses in a similar way.
                              Ooh the a good idea.

                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                              Hmmm...

                              There are ways of responding to this point, but they depend on whether or not you're using the term "genderfluid" correctly.
                              I may be using it incorrectly.

                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              Heh.

                              "I can't see a thing!"
                              "Oh no, what a nightmare."
                              "Sorry."
                              I’m...not sure what you’re saying with this. I remember the scene from TLA but I’m struggling to see a connection...

                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              Well, to the extent that the glass ceiling is a particularly subtle thing, I articulated a sense of it in the setting that men will always have limited advancement in their birth House because of the expectation that they'll be sent away, and limited in their marriage House because they're still basically outsiders. Men of rank exist in the Realm, but it's generally something they have to work twice as hard at.
                              I dunno I think it’s a pretty subtle thing, it’s difficult for me to think of something more subtle but I’m totally open to suggestions.
                              Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 10-12-2018, 10:34 AM.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                                That didn't really concern itself with Exaltation rate (which prior Editions never effectively conveyed), and more general obstetric health. The logic was that longer lifespan meant that certain biological processes were stretched out, so the two-year recovery period recommended for women was doubled. Doing otherwise was likely to result in complications and defects.

                                That whole aging thing was Second Edition conflating some details; the original book referred to an instance of a specific individual woman who probably employed sorcery to adjust her biology to a mortal birthing cycle, and inadvertently gave herself the lifespan as well.
                                It's comparable to progenitive essence in that it's the original explaination why there weren't a lot more Dragon-Blooded. I'd say they're about equally akward (I don't think there's a non-awkward way to handle this) with the 2e Dragon-Blooded women age themselves to death explaination as the winner for making the Terrestrial Exaltation seem defective.


                                Assorted homebrew goes here.
                                Please help the Ex3 wiki grow. Even if it's just posting existing homebrew there so there's less chance of losing it.

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