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Traditional gender roles in the realm.

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  • #91
    Thanks CountAlucard!
    Very interesting and enlightening read, Lioness!
    Last edited by Kim; 10-18-2018, 08:55 AM.

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    • #92
      I'll add that she still doesn't really work because she wasn't just a female chauvinist but also an incompetent officer who graduated and achieved her position by sleeping with her instructors (genders not given, but I imagine most people assume they were male) and blackmailing them later on. The latter part undermines the idea that she's supposed to be part of a matriarchal leaning command structure and feeds into real life assertions made about the rise of successful women in a male dominated field.


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      • #93
        Originally posted by Astralporing View Post
        As for dynastic marriages, while the default is that the man moves to the woman's house, in most cases what dictates the end result would be business and politics, not tradition. Tradition would be at best used to strengthen one's negotiating positions.
        Following up on Isator's comment to you hear that matrilocality is pretty solid in the Realm, I think if you wanted to combine a norm of fairly solid, iron, non-negotiable matrilocality, with managing powerful male scions, then I would expect.... where you have a powerful male scion, they generally don't go inter-House marriage (rather intra-House) and else when it will occur it tends to be between two fairly allied houses, and be fairly a nominal joining of another House, with probably in some instances even not much more than lip service to the idea that male scion X is going to subordinate his interests and ambitions to his wife's and his wife's house, and really he functions more as a brother and uncle in his natal house (shades of what happens in IRL matrilocality).

        This kind of seems to depart from the Realm in 3e, but might be interesting or useful for another culture. Or if you wanted to alter the Realm in your presentation. (If you don't find it so plausible as is, as I indeed I suspect I don't through the mechanisms proposed, and with the general egalitarianism of talent and Exaltation in play and real sex equal distribution of warrior hero skills that are key to power among the Exalted, which are nothing like what sustained real like pre-modern patriarchal systems, as much as I don't want to tear down Minton and Vance's efforts and cleverness at working to their brief).

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
          with the general egalitarianism of talent and Exaltation in play and real sex equal distribution of warrior hero skills that are key to power among the Exalted, which are nothing like what sustained real like pre-modern patriarchal systems
          What were they sustained by?


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          • #95
            Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
            And another…
            So that’s why the highest Appearance in WFHW is 4.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post

              Following up on Isator's comment to you hear that matrilocality is pretty solid in the Realm, I think if you wanted to combine a norm of fairly solid, iron, non-negotiable matrilocality, with managing powerful male scions, then I would expect.... where you have a powerful male scion, they generally don't go inter-House marriage (rather intra-House) and else when it will occur it tends to be between two fairly allied houses, and be fairly a nominal joining of another House, with probably in some instances even not much more than lip service to the idea that male scion X is going to subordinate his interests and ambitions to his wife's and his wife's house, and really he functions more as a brother and uncle in his natal house (shades of what happens in IRL matrilocality).

              This kind of seems to depart from the Realm in 3e, but might be interesting or useful for another culture. Or if you wanted to alter the Realm in your presentation. (If you don't find it so plausible as is, as I indeed I suspect I don't through the mechanisms proposed, and with the general egalitarianism of talent and Exaltation in play and real sex equal distribution of warrior hero skills that are key to power among the Exalted, which are nothing like what sustained real like pre-modern patriarchal systems, as much as I don't want to tear down Minton and Vance's efforts and cleverness at working to their brief).
              I'm basing it on 2e (and some 1e parts i've read), actually. I don't know how it all is going to change in 3e yet.

              i found a part of the post i've made for a similar thread on the old forums:
              It is hard to verify this, because married couples are mentioned very rarely, but there are a lot of important men in the Houses that are either implied or clearly stated to have been born into the house, are explicitly of very likely married, and yet still remain within their own House. Of the people mentioned in the house description in DB MoeP alone we have Cathak Cainan, Cathak Cacek, Mnemon Caras. Sesus Kajak household is male-descended. It is possible that each of those married a mortal patrician, but i find it extremely unlikely.
              Peleps Kaizoku household is mentioned in House Peleps description. His wife is Mnemon Kuvon (and from the mention of extremely high exaltation rate of that line, she isn't a mortal either)
              Ragara Soras Heral is expected to marry a V'Neef exalt, yet still is groomed to be the next head of the House Ragara, so obviously they don't think he will be switching houses.
              Notice that the last example (Ragara Soras Heral) is exactly an important and powerful male scion in an interhouse marriage (to a House that doesn't have all that many exalts yet, so can hardly afford to "sell them out" too easily).

              As for Cathak Cainan being picked as a husband to a Cathak dynast and a House succesor by Cathak herself, is that a 3e thing? because before he was described thus: Great grandson of Cathak himself, Cathak Cainan is the current patriarch of House Cathak and a true icon of the Scarlet Empire.
              Notice Cathak being male here, Cainan being born in the house, not married into it, and him being called patriarch.

              All of the above makes me think, as i mentioned before, that the default state is just that, default, and the norm is not something that is set in stone, but rather something that keeps getting broken whenever it is convenient.

              Now, as i mentioned, i don' know how is that all going to change in 3e (i can already see that some of this is definitely going to), but in my opinion for the situation to significantly change the rewrites would need to be really massive. And i don't expect them to be.
              Last edited by Astralporing; 10-19-2018, 11:02 AM.



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              • #97
                Originally posted by Astralporing View Post
                As for Cathak Cainan being picked as a husband to a Cathak dynast and a House succesor by Cathak herself, is that a 3e thing?
                Cainan was born into House Cathak so was his wife Cathak Urima and he's Cathak's chosen successor. Cathak is now an adopted daughter of the Scarlet Empress.
                Last edited by Lioness; 10-19-2018, 11:30 AM.


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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Astralporing View Post
                  is that a 3e thing?
                  As I thought.

                  You missed the Kickstarter, person; we've all actually been reading What Fire Has Wrought for months now.

                  As for the examples you cite, the more straightforward explanation is a bunch of freelancers who only ever worked on one or two books, and wrote things according to presumption that slipped past the book developer and/or editor, rather than making some statement contrary to the directly written matrilineality of the Realm.
                  Last edited by Isator Levi; 10-19-2018, 11:41 AM.


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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Astralporing View Post
                    Notice that the last example (Ragara Soras Heral) is exactly an important and powerful male scion in an interhouse marriage (to a House that doesn't have all that many exalts yet, so can hardly afford to "sell them out" too easily).
                    Oh, I also want to address this point specifically, just because it touches on a detail that I really like:

                    House V'neef now consists of several hundred Exalted, because the Scarlet Empress elected to give them an early boost by authorizing the adoption of loads of the Realm's outcastes. It's a process that benefits V'neef by getting a lot of extra muscle and experience on hand, and her new children by granting them the actual status of Dynasts.

                    Right now V'neef has legal sons and daughters who are several decades older than her, at least.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                    • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      As I thought.

                      You missed the Kickstarter, person;
                      True. Had some RL stuff going on at that time and missed the deadline by few days :/ I see there's been quite a number of changes. Still, i don't think that the end result will be all that different. Realm is way too sophisticated an entity, and the interhouse politics too byzantine for things like which House the pair ends in to not be a part of the deal. At best the cost of departing from tradition will be greater, but i doubt it would be great enough to make such deals impractical.


                      Last edited by Astralporing; 10-19-2018, 01:21 PM.



                      The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

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                      • Originally posted by Astralporing View Post
                        Still, i don't think that the end result will be all that different. Realm is way too sophisticated an entity, and the interhouse politics too byzantine for things like which House the pair ends in to not be a part of the deal.
                        Oh of course it is. More sophisticated by far than every real life nation and empire (including the actual Byzantines) that managed to be straightforwardly patriarchal and patrilineal. Of which there is... most of them.

                        I certainly think we'd see these same arguments if the Realm was also presented in that manner, rather than being taken for granted as the familiar default.

                        Nothing different at all from prior depictions in Cathak Cainan being referred to as matriarch, besides one letter being knocked a couple of steps down the alphabet.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                          So that’s why the highest Appearance in WFHW is 4.
                          I know you're joking but I'll take a moment to unpack my earlier statement.

                          Tepet Lisara basically exists to be put in her place by a man... which isn't a problem she's a minor antagonist with a serious prejudice. You'd expect a man who thought all women were lesser to experience a similar humiliating comeuppance.
                          What is a problem is that she's presented as an individual of no value save for being an attractive woman whose willing to use sex to get what she wants and even the part about her seducing and blackmailing her instructors is more a narrative element to make her contemptible rather than indicative of any cunning she possesses. If she was actually good at something besides looking good she could be beaten at her own game as a satisfactory end to her arc or as the catalyst to stop being such a bitch.


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                          • And you can't even change it to her sleeping to the top with other women cos then she just ends up a man-hating lesbian.

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                            • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                              And you can't even change it to her sleeping to the top with other women cos then she just ends up a man-hating lesbian.
                              Really? Why not a "men are irrelevant for advancement" sleeping with women to the top. Ex3 rewrites quite a bit already, and it shouldn't be too hard to rewrite her in a way that don't makes her fall into the "man-hating lesbian" trope.

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                              • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                                As I thought.

                                You missed the Kickstarter, person; we've all actually been reading What Fire Has Wrought for months now.

                                As for the examples you cite, the more straightforward explanation is a bunch of freelancers who only ever worked on one or two books, and wrote things according to presumption that slipped past the book developer and/or editor, rather than making some statement contrary to the directly written matrilineality of the Realm.
                                Um, not all of us. I didn't even get into Exalted until well after the Kickstarter for What Fire Has Wrought ended. I do find this discussion interesting, even if I have no contribution to it because I know none of the lore on it.


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