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My problem with QC characters.

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  • #31
    I’m not positive it’s directly relevant but I feel it worth pointing out that, going by the general difficulty table, pretty much everyone in Creation is extraordinary compared to IRL. Like, that “standard professional” 2+2 pool is explicitly enough to remove someone’s appendix on a ship in a heavy storm. Similarly, Random Q.C. McSoldier’s movement pool is enough to parkour in the rain.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post


      I just think it's very silly to complain that a game which is about world-shaking demigods and gives you the option to play a world-shaking demigod in any area of competence you wish makes characters with dot ratings that are described as extremely extraordinary... extremely extraordinary in comparison to people that are not world-shaking demigods.
      I don’t think that the problem is that people with melee three have abilities exactly in line with what the book describes, I think actually that’s a very good thing. The problem is that the game seems a bit confused about what PCs tend to actually look like mechanically. It’s nearly trivial and also a very very good idea to stick 3 dots in melee, especially if you can somehow get an excellency for it. It easily lets you beat with fairly little effort and high reliability half the antagonists in the antagonist section.

      Which could either be solved by just cutting a bunch of the stuff out of the antagonist chapter, or even just really simplifying them down to a more compact form, basically saying “yeah we know 98% of you guys are skilled beyond the ken of normal grizzled veterans, so here’s some token stats in case you want to fight them anyway, but we’ll save the cool abilities for more impressive foes.”

      In a game system like Edge of Empire for Star Wars, for example, they also have some classes that are very social/lore based. Which works well with their antagonists because as a diplomat you can still contribute to fighting, but you can’t just flick a few skill points into weapon training and start mowing down stormtroopers all over. In Exalted you totally can do that, and in some cases are even encouraged just to go all out. It just feels like there’s a disconnect between what you can realistically expect most players to do when given that choice, and what the game presents as challenges.

      Essentially, why in a game about world shaking Demi-gods is the antagonist chapter full of enemies appropriate for much much lesser heroes.

      It’s not just mortals either, like Greenmaws just kind of suck, along with several others.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        So yeah, basically it's just way too easy to chargen, or even post chargen, become way too good at too many things and one of those things might as well be combat in the dangerous world of exalted. It isn't JUST combat either, that's just a common one. That Snakefolk Merchant profile has 5 dice to his disguise check, pretty unlikely to fool anyone who didn't specifically not take awareness. But again, that's really only because you can toss 2-3 points in there, spend a mote or two of essence and become so perceptive that it might unsettle people. Like "Sorry, I hate to point this out but I thought you should know, I noticed while we were talking that you floss, but you keep skipping your back molar, probably by accident."

        [...]

        TLDR; It's too easy to be too good at things in comparison to the game world, even before essence is involved.
        Oh, that's very true for things that aren't combat. In my experience, optimized social characters are the hardest to fairly challenge, but I'm having strong deja vu that I've had this conversation here before and somebody popped in to tell me that I just wasn't using enough Defining Intimacies on defense or something.

        I will just say (and I think I've not shared this thought before) that the pass/fail binary of social rolls (and, for that matter, the Willpower expenditure to halt certain social rolls) makes playing an especially dazzling socialite less rewarding than playing someone who's extra-good at combat, or extra-good at crafting, or extra-good at sorcery. My social-heavy players have seemed somewhat discontented with being as good at their role as they've been. But that's drifting off-topic.

        Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
        I’m not positive it’s directly relevant but I feel it worth pointing out that, going by the general difficulty table, pretty much everyone in Creation is extraordinary compared to IRL. Like, that “standard professional” 2+2 pool is explicitly enough to remove someone’s appendix on a ship in a heavy storm. Similarly, Random Q.C. McSoldier’s movement pool is enough to parkour in the rain.
        The suggested difficulties are much worse than the suggested dice pools, yeah.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          Or the Hellboar, who's description implies that even Terrestrial Exalted are foolish to take them on. Reading that you'd think it was pretty badass. It even has two combo abilities, a Trample that automatically knocks you down if it can rush you and stomp in the same turn, and Death Stomp, that adds +5 damage to prone enemies. Dayum, that WOULD be scary. Except it's got 6 dice to that attack, so even a very combat focused mortal can bring that chance to hit down to 1% without stunts or willpower, nevermind essence.
          I kind of interpreted that as the Dragon-Blooded level equivalent of the boar that took down Robert Baratheon, pretty easily driven off but if you chase them down and don't factor the Berserker merit they could really hurt you.

          This is before the possibility of a pack of them, I don't know how Hellboars are supposed to work but IRL while male boars tend to be solitary female boars travel together with their collective offspring so there's the potential to ride out to deal with a single roaming monster only to find there's a whole group of them.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by Ascension View Post

            Oh, that's very true for things that aren't combat. In my experience, optimized social characters are the hardest to fairly challenge, but I'm having strong deja vu that I've had this conversation here before and somebody popped in to tell me that I just wasn't using enough Defining Intimacies on defense or something.

            I will just say (and I think I've not shared this thought before) that the pass/fail binary of social rolls (and, for that matter, the Willpower expenditure to halt certain social rolls) makes playing an especially dazzling socialite less rewarding than playing someone who's extra-good at combat, or extra-good at crafting, or extra-good at sorcery. My social-heavy players have seemed somewhat discontented with being as good at their role as they've been. But that's drifting off-topic.
            I find that you can have some pretty good social characters, but unfortunately the player needs to really understand the somewhat complex social system really well for that to work, and be interested in more subtle gameplay in general.

            The social system is also more situational, you’re always going to have intimacies modifying things. It’s also slanted towards defence, which is a good thing, but combined with how often integrity gets favoured, most of the the social QCs aren’t really equipped to do much meaningful interaction there. I feel that DBs will be slightly better for that kind of thing, since they can’t so easily get a big dice cap with low ability dots, but I’ll need to run a few games of them before I get a feel for it.
            Originally posted by Lioness View Post
            I kind of interpreted that as the Dragon-Blooded level equivalent of the boar that took down Robert Baratheon, pretty easily driven off but if you chase them down and don't factor the Berserker merit they could really hurt you.

            This is before the possibility of a pack of them, I don't know how Hellboars are supposed to work but IRL while male boars tend to be solitary female boars travel together with their collective offspring so there's the potential to ride out to deal with a single roaming monster only to find there's a whole group of them.
            I’ve thought of doing something like that and it could maybe work. I didn’t know female boars roamed in packs so I was just going to have a big corpse attract a few, and they’d be hungry enough to spend some willpower defending their kill. Maybe a dead elephant from a caravan that the PCs are investigating the disappearance of.

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            • #36
              Perhaps it would spice things up if QC characters had abilities that trigger when they fail to do something or when they suffer an attack.



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              • #37
                QCs are literally what I have done in *every* edition of Exalted, codified. If the problem is dice... give em more. I won't tell.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ascension View Post
                  The suggested difficulties are much worse than the suggested dice pools, yeah.
                  I mean I consider it a feature. Creation is such an epic world of epic people doing epic things that it outright has a higher bar than our world for what “epic” is.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                    I mean I consider it a feature. Creation is such an epic world of epic people doing epic things that it outright has a higher bar than our world for what “epic” is.
                    Ehh... when you can potentially boost a dice pool above 20 fresh out of character creation (assuming Solar or Lunar-with-a-Stunt), "near-impossible even by heroic standards" topping out at Difficulty 5 feels really inadequate. It doesn't give you any conceptual framework for describing what, for instance, a 9-successes Lore roll can achieve (what's almost double a "near-impossible" feat?), nor does it leave much room for one.

                    Maybe the intent really is supposed to be that you are never meant to strictly need more than 5 successes for any standard* roll, and the extra dice you can get are just insulation against penalties and insurance against bad rolls, but even for ludicrously epic demigods I'd like to be able to give them proportionately-ludicrous challenges other than just "face opposition from someone who has equally ludicrous superpowers."

                    Or, alternatively, there should be more applications for Threshold Successes so being better-than-you-need-to-be could be more rewarding. (I would say, for example, that Storypath's version of Stunts is a good approach to making threshold successes matter more.)

                    *By which I mean "not an opposed roll or something covered by a subsystem like Combat, Crafting, Workings, etc. that uses different guidelines for Difficulty."

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                      What you’re really supposed to do with those mortals and zombies and stuff is put them in a big battle group with a great commander. But for animals like the bunyip? You got me, I have no idea why they’re eating up page space.
                      Animals perform their best when they're essentially exotic pets. For example a female Bunyip can give you a free Defend Other with Parry 5 if you're willing to abide the ridiculousness of riding around like a baby marsupial because you're also mounted so +1 defence there.
                      I'm imagining a diminutive assassin emerging from the pouch and firing poisoned blow darts at people because that should be pretty memorable.


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