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  • Social Influence, Presence vs. Socialize

    So I am trying my hand at a Social focused character, went with a Socialize Supernal Eclipse, but I am having a problem. I seem to not be to good at roleplaying my social influence actions as Manipulation and Socialize instead of Charisma and Presence. So what I was hoping is that you good people of the forums here could give me some examples of how you would word or approach social influence from both a Presence and a Socialize perspective so that hopefully I can get a better understanding of how the 2 differ and can better portray my character as the manipulative courtier I wish her to be.

    Thanks in Advance.

  • #2
    Most social influence isn't made with the Socialize Ability; its primary intent is to be used to stay abreast of social scenes by intuiting the motives of those around you, without revealing your own.

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    • #3
      Yeah, you use socialize to find out the blackmail material, or what they want, and then you can roll Charisma/Manipulation + Presence to actually convince them, using the Intimacy you've discovered.


      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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      • #4
        {raised eyebrow}

        Socialize is a character’s understanding of the social context in which she acts, encompassing both knowledge of decorum and etiquette as well as how to use them to one’s advantage in persuasion or manipulation. In formal social situations such as an aristocratic court or a ritualized ceremony, a character can use Socialize to influence the thoughts and feelings of other characters with social actions.
        Presence Instil Action: You should believe in or care about this thing because I am personally very impressive and speak of it with such conviction that you can't help but be swept along by it.

        Socialize Instil Action: You should believe in or care about this thing because of surrounding social expectations, the importance it has to the history of our people, or because I lay out the manner in which doing so will help you to fit in locally and advance your personal standing.

        Presence Persuade Action: Do it for me! {wink}

        Socialize Persuade Action: Do it for your forefathers! {stern}

        I don't know a way to effectively convey my gesture at this moment through text; that one of spreading your arms out and cocking your head to convey "what's the issue?".


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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        • #5
          One also has to consider the way in which using Socialize might be context dependent; the existence of scenarios in which the people are touchy or focused enough on protocol that it's really easy to put one's foot in one's mouth, or even scenarios in which speaking bluntly or directly is considered crude and profane and will weaken your credibility. In cases like this, the manner in which you would address people, the circumlocution and the deference and the veiled language, that would all correspond with a Socialize roll.

          Presence won't fail outright in such scenarios (indeed, it's part of the genre that the game as a whole and the Exalted specifically draw upon that sometimes you need to cut through all of the decorum and get people to listen to basic truth, and your force of personality can be strong enough to make it work), but it should definitely be penalised to a degree depending on how touchy your audience is and just how blunt you're being. It might also have greater story consequences for your particular social disruption.

          But for when you want to play the social butterfly, either because it's circumstantially more advantageous to not be too disruptive or it's just your jam, you navigate those systems with Socialize.


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            "In formal social situations such as an aristocratic court or a ritualized ceremony, a character can use Socialize to influence the thoughts and feelings of other characters with social actions."


            Socialize Instil Action: You should believe in or care about this thing because of surrounding social expectations, the importance it has to the history of our people, or because I lay out the manner in which doing so will help you to fit in locally and advance your personal standing.

            Presence Persuade Action: Do it for me! {wink}

            Socialize Persuade Action: Do it for your forefathers! {stern}
            "In formal social situations such a court or ceremony" isn't the same as "My instill action is based on your culture, society, family, etc." That would just be supported by a suitable intimacy.

            But I confess I missed that, since it's in the Ability section rather than the Social Rules, and the ability write-ups are more fluffy than mechanical. So thanks for pointing that out.


            Incidentally, when I first started playing, I thought you rolled one of the three (Presence, Performance, Socialise) based on what you were doing. Ie at a party maybe you roll Socialise, to convince someone in your shop to buy something you roll Presence, and to give a speech you roll Performance. But then I was told I was wrong; roll Presence for Social Influence rolls (except when using dance/sex/oratory/music/singing... though oratory can be a bit on the line) and Socialise is just for Read Intentions.

            But anyway, I just went back and re-read the whole Social rules, and while for Read Intentions it gives a specific ability (Socialise), for Social Influence it just says "Roll Charisma or Manipulation plus the appropriate ability." Which isn't very clear about, well, when you can use Socialise.

            So, I guess, taking that ability description, I guess it should be:

            For social influence rolls:
            Generally roll Presence.
            For dance/sex/oratory/music/singing roll Performance.
            In formal social situations such as an aristocratic court or a ritualised ceremony, roll Socialise.


            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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            • #7
              Socialize is more about spreading the word, reading the room and setting its mood. Etiquette, gossip and scandals are its bread and butter.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                "In formal social situations such a court or ceremony" isn't the same as "My instill action is based on your culture, society, family, etc." That would just be supported by a suitable intimacy.
                What is a formal situation? If you're a person who focuses on the Socialize Ability, might not your skill set and your inclinations cause you to bring them with you wherever you might go? You carry a tea set with you, and you can darn well make it into a social situation as you please.

                That being said, I was primarily describing ways in which the Socialize Ability would be used in situations where it is applicable. There are nuances of difference between appealing to certain Intimacies through Presence and Socialize, I should think, as there should be nuances inherent to any given Intimacy that can't be readily encompasses in the brief, summarized description but play out in the course of the social system; you care about family emotionally and personally, you care about family as a systemic thing with certain associated values and expectations, and one Ability or t'other will represent another's means of appealing to you through that or what they intend you to do with it.

                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
                But anyway, I just went back and re-read the whole Social rules, and while for Read Intentions it gives a specific ability (Socialise), for Social Influence it just says "Roll Charisma or Manipulation plus the appropriate ability." Which isn't very clear about, well, when you can use Socialise.
                Not very clear? I think it's so broad that if I had a mind to, I would argue that you could roll Melee under the right circumstances.

                I'm joking of course: I would strictly limit it to the ones that say, in big block letters, "This Ability is important in social influence."

                Like, if it says it's important in social influence, and it's not the obvious one that can't really be used to affect other people, and the social influence rules say "roll the appropriate Ability", I presume its a viable candidate to be used.

                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
                In formal social situations such as an aristocratic court or a ritualised ceremony, roll Socialise.
                You focus on that part and it makes formal situations sound so limited, so exclusive, the kind of thing where I suspect too many players will want to make arguments to avoid. I say there needs to be emphasis on the broadness of what can apply, particularly (again) considering the manner in which the character of a player that is strongly personally invested in Socialize might define what is and is not formal.

                That's not to say that formality is whatever you want it to be, but rather that any situation can become formal if a character puts in the effort to make it so. Not that the rules of decorum are a free-for-all, but that they can be imposed on a situation. Hell, an opening Socialize Instil or Persuade roll might be used to establish that context for other characters to tentatively agree to.

                That very last one, that might be technically be encompassed in the rules as written, to which I respond with the Orichalcum Rule in combination with the question of why somebody would not want to pursue things in this manner. Maybe it's just me, but I see Socialize as a very interesting Ability that prior Editions (especially Second) were using terribly, and now we have an Edition which uses it well, and I want people to lean into that, immerse themselves in it, expand upon the text to the extent that it can without violating other parts of the text.

                Does anybody else remember when Socialize was such a black sheep that Eclipse Caste players didn't even want it? One of the first things I ever heard about Exalted was somebody complaining about the scope of those arguments, on the Off Topic forum. Let's kind of work to push even the lingering vestiges of that sentimennnnttt oooover the side of a cliff. Not one of the nice cliffs, a really pointy one.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                  You carry a tea set with you, and you can darn well make it into a social situation as you please.
                  I approve of this interpretation.

                  (Our old Eclipse sorcerer used to carry around a tea set, and make people amazing tea with his Craft abilities. Like, 12-13 success tea. Not to manipulate people or anything; he just really liked tea, and liked to make his friends nice tea.)


                  "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                  • #10
                    I think the other thing is just that socialize can be pretty campaign dependant, like sail. If your campaign primarily takes place in the thickest eastern jungle and exploring deep underground ruins your sail supernal with 22 sail charms is going to not feel like his ability is really useful. It’s possible to include it, maybe you get an airship or something although that might kind of ruin the trailblazing through the jungle aspect, but it’s not like a campaign on high seas adventure where you have to put in work to make sail not critical.

                    Similarly your awesome socialite might find themselves in a campaign where you need to work some more with your GM to make the ability work, and likewise cloak and dagger intrigue in high castle is basically the adventure on the high seas for socialize.

                    I also wouldn’t underestimate formal situations. Almost every meeting your character has with a powerful person will be in a formal setting. It might be a Royal/elemental court, a business meeting, a war room, a gala, a tribal meeting, a scholarly conference, anything like that. Unless you’re close family you’re not ever going to just be hanging out and shooting the breeze with the Empress.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                      I think the other thing is just that socialize can be pretty campaign dependant, like sail. If your campaign primarily takes place in the thickest eastern jungle and exploring deep underground ruins your sail supernal with 22 sail charms is going to not feel like his ability is really useful. It’s possible to include it, maybe you get an airship or something although that might kind of ruin the trailblazing through the jungle aspect, but it’s not like a campaign on high seas adventure where you have to put in work to make sail not critical.

                      Similarly your awesome socialite might find themselves in a campaign where you need to work some more with your GM to make the ability work, and likewise cloak and dagger intrigue in high castle is basically the adventure on the high seas for socialize.
                      I wouldn't quite equate the need for navigable bodies of water with the presence of human beings (or really, any kind of being that can speak). I can conceive of chronicles in which the circle spends all of its time in isolation (even if I can't quite see the appeal), but that strikes me as a scenario you have to go out of your way to create far more than even including the ocean or large rivers is.

                      Never mind that this is a setting in which thickest jungles and underground ruins are perfectly capable of being home to sophisticated societies. Like, in real life, we've had and continue to have the former, and are probably going to start having the latter some time in the not too distant future.

                      You say trailbazing through the jungle, but I have to question if that could sustain a full chronicle and exactly what the purpose of it is if it consists of only five people.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yeah, I think almost every game is going to include some socialising. Some more than others (an intrigue-focused game vs a combat-heavy game), but you're always going to do some social interaction. Certainly more than using Sail.

                        I think in our games we roll Sail a couple of times a year, but Socialise is pretty common. Mostly for reading people (and of course, you're rolling against Guile, which is based on their Socialise). About as common as Presence rolls, I guess. Some sessions have little, some sessions a fair bit.


                        "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          I wouldn't quite equate the need for navigable bodies of water with the presence of human beings (or really, any kind of being that can speak). I can conceive of chronicles in which the circle spends all of its time in isolation (even if I can't quite see the appeal), but that strikes me as a scenario you have to go out of your way to create far more than even including the ocean or large rivers is.

                          Never mind that this is a setting in which thickest jungles and underground ruins are perfectly capable of being home to sophisticated societies. Like, in real life, we've had and continue to have the former, and are probably going to start having the latter some time in the not too distant future.

                          You say trailbazing through the jungle, but I have to question if that could sustain a full chronicle and exactly what the purpose of it is if it consists of only five people.
                          Oh no, the equivalency there was that not all abilities need to actually be universally applicable. Socialize already applies to read intentions AND guile in every social situation, it’s okay if you can’t twist it into also applying to your persuade/instill/inspire actions.

                          Where on earth did I imply that trailblazing through the jungle couldn’t have socialize? Trailblazing through the jungle could have fantastic opportunities to use socialize! Spirit courts, ancient civilizations, jadeborn empires, defiant tribes of humans defying oppressive beastman overlords!

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                          • #14
                            Have a Vancepost-
                            http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...52#post1080152


                            Raksha are my fae-vorite.

                            Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post
                              Yes, exactly that. My two points were that it’s okay if you can’t twist socialize into every intimate campfire talk with traveling companions, because some campaigns just have way more of that than they do structured formal meetings, and that’s okay because not every ability need to be equally useful in every campaign.

                              Second point being that the concept of what is a socially structured scene can be a lot more broad than just a Realm formal meeting, but can include things like the proper way to address holy priests at temple, or even beastman tribes. If you don’t bow on your right knee while keeping eye contact it’s considered an insult to the tribal leaders, that’s socialize.

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