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magic weapons and armor with no evocations?

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  • magic weapons and armor with no evocations?

    The sample characters in the main book have artifact weapons, but mostly no evocations.

    Should they all get some custom ones, or does it mean there are (two dot?) artifact weapons that provide no benefits beyond being magical blades with superior stats?

  • #2
    It means they haven't unlocked their evocations yet.

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    • #3
      Why would anyone with access to a magic equipment that inscreases their chances of survival in battle not prioretize unlocking their potential?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Braininthejar View Post
        Why would anyone with access to a magic equipment that inscreases their chances of survival in battle not prioretize unlocking their potential?
        Just from a purely meta perspective, because you have to spend experience points unlocking those Evocations, and that means you're not spending the experience learning your own native Charms, or Sorcery, or Martial Arts or increasing your skills or Attributes and they've decided that spending experience points on Evocations would be worse than spending the experience in other places.

        A more in character explanation is that unlocking Evocations isn't like turning on a flashlight. Rather, to get Evocations requires a deep personal commitment and attachment to the weapon in question and it's entirely reasonable that many people simply wouldn't have the interest or ability to unlock Evocations for their weapon or armor.

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        • #5
          Mostly because of priorities in chara design and characterization but lots of other things than artifacts evocations gives more chances at survival in normal fights than evocations do. ^^
          Evocations are strong but If I want my characters to just be good at surviving, I'd go for some solar charms before going for the evocations helping me beating my enemies controling the weather (it's just an example, evocations can do lots of things). ^^
          Last edited by RosePlancton; 10-27-2018, 03:59 PM.

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          • #6
            Maybe they only got their artefact weapons recently, so haven't yet unlocked their power.

            But anyway, they're 3 dot: there are no 2 dot weapons and armour. 2 dots is stuff like the magic collar that always keeps you clean. Weapons and armour are always 3+ dots, and always have potential evocations available.


            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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            • #7
              It's mostly wordcount, probably. None of them have all the charms they should have listed.

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              • #8
                Yeah, none of them have even the 15 charms you start with.


                "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Braininthejar View Post
                  Why would anyone with access to a magic equipment that inscreases their chances of survival in battle not prioretize unlocking their potential?
                  Soldiers tend to play cards in their free time, rather than spending every waking hour drilling, even though that might improve their combat effectiveness.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Amayad View Post

                    Soldiers tend to play cards in their free time, rather than spending every waking hour drilling, even though that might improve their combat effectiveness.
                    Hmm, there are a few angles from which I would want to respond to this.

                    The first and most basic and essential one is a reminder that the rules are not a simulation of the setting; in context, giving a Quick Character an Artifact weapon with few or no Evocations does not necessarily convey anything other than a need to keep the write-up fairly simple, and that Storyteller are free and encouraged to make modifications according to needs. A lot of things about any given Quick (or other) Character's write-up are probably non-diegetic, and that should probably be considered in assessing the motive behind them before attributing it to some deeper insight into the character or the nature of their Artifact.

                    So, addressing some things about this statement specifically.

                    One is to dispute the idea that spending every waking hour drilling would probably ultimately have diminishing returns, in terms of ultimately placing the body under a severe enough strain that it actually causes problems that are harmful to health, and diminish combat efficiency. I acknowledge that this might be pedantic, and reading the statement a bit too literally.

                    Particularly due to having read accounts from people that have provided military service in which they've said that, after their initial training and under circumstances in which their exercise and drill regimens become their own responsibility, they've at least known of people who've let their activity lag a bit. Mind, that's under modern circumstances, in which attitudes towards combat readiness and the degree to which general military conditions are concerned with basic human rights are a bit different to what might be expected of a more ancient world army model, in which the commitment can be more severe and commanders aren't often very concerned with not pushing the troops as far as they can go.

                    Even then, that's talking about something like more common line troops, where individual capability can be made up for a bit by the efforts of the collective. It's a bit different for specialists, especially the kinds of people that can wield mystical weaponry.

                    And there's, errr… something, something, Dynast assignment of House weaponry... hmm, my enthusiasm for this post had diminished considerably in the last couple of minutes...


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                    • #11
                      Well without full/sufficient knowledge of the artifact don't evocations also end up much harder to unlock? I mean Dynastic House artifacts have the advantage that most things about the artifacts story are known, so what behaviors it works best with are known and can be worked with. If you give someone Sunflash and they don't know squat about it they might still get evocations because its a weapon that ties into distance killing and that's probably a thing that it'll be used for. Talion though might not since its powers grow off punishing grievances and humbling people, so someone just using it as an artifact wrackstaff isn't as likely to get evocations. This is not counting one's that are also freshly made and might be in the process of developing their evocations.
                      Last edited by nalak42; 10-28-2018, 01:24 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                        But anyway, they're 3 dot: there are no 2 dot weapons and armour. 2 dots is stuff like the magic collar that always keeps you clean. Weapons and armour are always 3+ dots, and always have potential evocations available.
                        Doesn't that make crafting pointless? If every dragonblooded comes with powerful magic weapons and armor, the team will be fully equipped by the time you're done working on your first daiklave...

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                        • #13
                          I'm not sure what your presumptions are to ask this question. Care to elaborate?

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                          • #14
                            Because they've killed the DBs and taken their artefacts?

                            You're not entirely right. But... You're not entirely wrong.

                            I played a crafter for a while, and I made myself a blue jade hand (as mine had been chopped off by an essence 5 Dawn) and a pair of blue jade short daiklaives (they were blue jade because that was the only magic material I had: orichalcum doesn't grow on trees). So that was pretty useful.

                            Now, sure, maybe I could have killed a Dragon blood and taken their daiklaives... But I specifically wanted two short daiklaives, due to my speciality in two-weapon fighting.
                            And I doubt any DBs were carrying around spare hands.

                            I also thought I could make artefact weapons for the other PCs, but...
                            Our Dawn, Eclipse and Zenith all had ones they bought at character gen;
                            Our Lunar had two daiklaives she'd taken from specific does;
                            Our other Eclipse was a non-combat character and spy, who is the only character who's managed to stay known as a mortal, and a giant golden chakram would ruin that.
                            And that's not to mention the two daiklaives and dire lance that PCs took from NPCs and I'm pretty sure have just forgotten about.

                            So, while I did make weapons and it was useful, it wasn't incredibly so.

                            Saying this, making artefact armour would have been useful. Only the Dawn had that (but the Eclipse wouldn't have worn it, and the Lunar couldn't as she used MA). The other Eclipse wanted me to make her some artefact armour that would help with sorcery, and me and the Zenith could have done with some.
                            But I never had the time or materials (that character is dead now).

                            Overall I found Craft a bit useful. You can make the exact artefacts you want, with the kind of evocations you want (a raging barbarian who finds the Black Jade Daiklaives of Water-Sorcery isn't going to get much use of evocations from it).

                            But it's not very useful. PCs often start with some suitable artefacts anyway, and as you said, your enemies might well have some.
                            You are also limited by time and magic materials. You can start the game with Supernal Craft and 15 craft charms, but if you don't have 5 weeks of downtime per artefact and a load of jade or something, you're out of luck.

                            I've played two Solar crafter's, each with like 13 craft charms, and frankly, I wish I'd taken charms from a different ability. My other Solar has made no artefacts at all (no time or materials).

                            (One other thing: I made my twin short daiklaives and magic hand by melting down and reforging weapons I got from a Thunderbird chieftain we defeated. When I mentioned that on this forum, some people said you can't do that. If that's true, then my Craft Artefacts would be truly useless).

                            I will say that I don't think this makes the Craft ability a waste. Another guy did loads of really useful non-artefact crafting. Giant walls, a castle, a town, huge chains across the river to block ships, etc. But in 3rd ed, he only ever made one artefact weapon. Didn't really seem like the amount of charms he put in was worth it. I certainly didn't feel that.

                            If, of course, I played a game where none of the party started with artefacts, there weren't many enemies whose artefacts we could take (for example, if we fought lots of Raksha, monsters, and martial artists), there was plenty of downtime, and we had a orichalcum mine or something, then a Solar blacksmith would be really useful for the party in terms of making artefact weapons.

                            But, overall, while there are useful things you can do with Craft, I find that "making magic weapons and armour" is a misleading one, in terms of the resources put in and what you get out of it.
                            Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 10-28-2018, 05:48 AM.


                            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Braininthejar View Post

                              Doesn't that make crafting pointless? If every dragonblooded comes with powerful magic weapons and armor, the team will be fully equipped by the time you're done working on your first daiklave...
                              Depending of the ST and the type of stories his telling, yeah, but most of abilities are in this situation.
                              And when we're storytellers, we're not forced to make stories with antagonists armed to the tooth with only artifacts even on a "Wyld Hunt story", nor are we to make them equipped with artifacts having concepts matching the interests of our players characters, we're not forced to let our PCs capable to learn evocations from any artifacts they find either and finally crafting is not just about crafting new weapons and armors.
                              There is lots of other reasons but each of these are enough to make crafting potentially interesting because of the way artifacts works, what makes them interesting (i.e. their concept, their potential evocations and their attunement passives) and because of the way crafted things, being artifacts or not, and being created by a PC or not fit in the setting and the stories (as mc guffin, or helping in relationships dynamics, political or economical power, making a character some reputation, being the creator or the user of that crazy artifact, etc).

                              In my stories despite the fact that artifacts and magical materials are rare, there is lots of first age artifacts and manses to use, to repair, to understand and sometimes, crafting is the best solution to the problems I pose as a ST. My stories wouldn't be that way if there were'nt players with crafting in my party but as I said, it depends a lot on what stories you're telling with your group. I'm a huge fan of Science Fantasy, sooooo. With me things turned out that way with my party.

                              For example in one of my stories (thought as a filler) an artifact used by one of the wyld hunter was the heirloom of a secondary branch of the Ledaal family and the dragon blooded using it was the last one seeking revenge for the rest of his family dead at Thorns because of the mask of winter some years ago. Killed by the PCs, the direlance did its best, lots of times, to kill the party in a deceitful way in the following story. The only way to kill it and keep it at the same time was to kill it, reforging it when they knew what was happening was the artifact wrongdoing. X)
                              The next story was about a huge terraforming manse controlled by a crazy AI serving the autochtons living around the manse and giving them "magical powers" (which was obviously some first age tech).

                              Depending of what you're doing you and your party, crafting can really be interesting from my point of view, but there is also lots of ways for crafting to be an interesting thing without using the crafting system to repair or create things.^^

                              EDIT: Rereading myself I just remembered how my stories ends up badly for lots of NPCs XD
                              Last edited by RosePlancton; 10-28-2018, 07:28 AM.

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