Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

White Veil/Black Claw Or: would you play a low Charisma Social Primary?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • White Veil/Black Claw Or: would you play a low Charisma Social Primary?

    So I’m attempting to write up my perfect Maiden of the Black Claw archetype. However I’m running into a small (BIG) issue.

    To be optimised to do all her manipulative mojo well, said Maiden needs to have Sky High Manipulation and Appearance. Alas that leaves little for Charisma (like 1 or 2 dots)

    How would you role play Charisma 1/Manipulation 5/Appearance 5 characters?
    Last edited by prototype00; 10-29-2018, 07:42 AM.

  • #2
    As someone attractive and well-spoken, but untrustworthy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Morangias View Post
      As someone attractive and well-spoken, but untrustworthy.
      Fair enough. I figure it's the untrustworthiness of Loki (Marvel Loki) who has people falling over to believe his lies, but can't convince a single person that he is telling the truth.
      Last edited by prototype00; 10-29-2018, 09:25 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Loki works. Another example would be Yennefer from the Witcher. Her M.O. can be summed up as this:

        1. Yennefer comes up with a plan.
        2. Nobody wants to go with Yennefer's plan because it's exploitative towards everyone involved, and everyone involved has ample reasons to hate her guts anyway.
        3. Yennefer follows through with the plan, securing everyone's cooperation through lies and seduction.
        4. Everyone feels dicked over and hates Yennefer even more.

        Comment


        • #5
          Anyone who's in a position to influence authority, but not to exert authority would be a good example. Jafar from Aladin, Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings, most interpretations of James Moriarty, or Tom Hagen from The Godfather. Instead of going out there and getting yourself some followers, find people who already have organized followers and figure out how you can leverage them into doing what you want. Stay in the background and let your pawns step into the spotlight.


          [Ex3] Why Gods Need the Exigence - Plot hooks for Exigent characters of various gods.
          [Ex3] Homebrew Solar Charms - I can see the future, and it is glorious.
          [Ex3] The Glass Library - My Exalted Third Edition Blog (Updated 24/04/2016)

          Comment


          • #6
            That's what I was thinking; the power behind the throne. The advisor in the background who appears to be giving factual advice, that's actually guiding people towards what they want.

            I'd also suggest spending a bit of XP on raising your Charisma. If you've got Charisma 1 or 2, it's not very much.


            "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

            Comment


            • #7
              I can also see it in somebody who is not very well-liked, but effectively makes compelling and logical arguments* that the person being spoken to might find difficult to refute, whether they want to or not. I don't think they need to be strictly dishonest arguments either, even if the character has an agenda; there's a question of whether the more efficiently Manipulative character is the one whose agenda is completely unknown, or the one that is known to have an agenda to some extent, but is good enough at what they do that one can't afford not to listen to them. "I'm sure you've got ulterior motives, but right now I can't find a better argument about what we should be doing in the future".

              Note that these people don't necessarily need to be unpleasant or sleazy; you can also get dull, unsociable types that are bad at being compelling, but good at seeing what makes other people tick and how to find ways to fulfil that, and use that fulfilment to move towards the next stage in whatever.

              I warrant that a lot of Vulcans would make for a decent model of characters that have low Charisma, but good Manipulation, even within the self-imposed constraint that many Vulcans will not lie (I understand that they can often be a bit creative with how they frame the truth, and some Vulcan characters have even employed reverse psychology).

              * With a recognition that "logical" does not mean "devoid of emotional or sentimental connotations or significance", just that it effectively lays out how the causes will result in an effect desirable to the person, on the basis of their own priorities.


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

              Comment


              • #8
                I played this character in 2E with a Fiend. One of his best lines was, "The fact that you don't believe me proves I'm telling the truth. If I were lying, you'd believe me!"


                DrLoveMonkey - "On the other hand having a warhammer that's basically a steel beer keg on the end of a seven foot pole is fucking awesome."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ultimately the difference in attributes is pretty subjective and there is no one size fits all portrayal of Manipulation 5/Charisma 1 nor Charisma 5/Manipulation 1 I would suggest to have some internally consistent 'flaw' in the character's behaviour.

                  For example, my Deflier Delphian Odalisque was raised to be a royal concubine so she's very socially skilled but rigidly formal in a way that can seem deeply disingenuous.


                  Simple Exigent Guidelines, a work in progress

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Is it possible to still play a front man/woman/etc and just use Manipulation (you are probably lying to get people to do things for you, or using roundabout methods) or Appearance (your sheer animal magnetism is going to have people nodding sooner rather than later) instead of Charisma?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
                      Is it possible to still play a front man/woman/etc and just use Manipulation (you are probably lying to get people to do things for you, or using roundabout methods) or Appearance (your sheer animal magnetism is going to have people nodding sooner rather than later) instead of Charisma?

                      I'd say yes, absolutely. Manipulation isn't, as others in the thread have already pointed out, "evil Charisma", so you can play a face character, a quite moral one, with just pure Manipulation. As I see it, the social attributes are distinguished as follows:

                      Charisma is direct and up-front. Its approaches are about you, the person making the arguments: "Believe this because I'm correct", "Join me because I'm awesome", "agree to this bargain because of course you can trust me", and so on. That directness makes it pretty obvious, though. If you try a Charisma-based influence action, the target will definitely realize you're trying to influence them, and so will most people listening to you.

                      Manipulation's approach is about them, the person being convinced. "Believe this because it aligns with your other beliefs", "Join me because it will help you achieve your goals", "agree to this bargain because it offers something you want more than anything", etc. Manipulation-based influence is more subtle than Charisma, generally - with the right stunt, it's possible to influence someone and they'll never even realize you did it, and others witnessing the influence could very well completely overlook it even more easily. However, that subtlety also means its generally slower than Charisma. What Charisma might do in just a minute of determined speechifying, Manipulation might take a half-hour of circumlocutions, socially-necessary small talk, and apparently-but-not-really idle compliments.

                      Appearance depends on persuasive actions. It's not what you say, it's what you do that convinces people with Appearance-based influence. To rally your troops, you charge screaming into the ranks of the foe, knowing they'll follow your example. To intimidate an opponent, you march up, snatch her sword, and bend it into a horseshoe shape. To sell your clothes, you model them, demonstrating with your own flowing movements and well-honed expressions how beautiful they are. Appearance is the least subtle of the social attributes - basically, everybody watching is going to know you're trying to influence someone, and basically what that influence is supposed to be. However, it can be very fast as well.

                      I'd say that Appearance is probably the hardest attribute to base an entire social character off of, since while it's reasonably easy to get simple influence across by looks and actions, it's trickier to do the same for more complex ones. Manipulation and Charisma are about equally easy, I'd say, though your approach to any given influence will definitely be different.
                      Last edited by Kelly Pedersen; 10-30-2018, 12:39 AM. Reason: Corrected "Presence" to "Charisma", getting the streams crossed on different RPGs...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post


                        I'd say yes, absolutely. Manipulation isn't, as others in the thread have already pointed out, "evil Presence", so you can play a face character, a quite moral one, with just pure Manipulation. As I see it, the social attributes are distinguished as follows:

                        Presence
                        Charisma, surely.

                        I'd say that Appearance is probably the hardest attribute to base an entire social character off of, since while it's reasonably easy to get simple influence across by looks and actions, it's trickier to do the same for more complex ones. Manipulation and Presence are about equally easy, I'd say, though your approach to any given influence will definitely be different.
                        It seems easier to wrap your head around it for front-line combat leaders. Basically, saying "follow me and do what I do," before leaping into the fray and beginning to reap the opposing line like wheat. Using it for Stealth... now that's tricky to explain.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                          Charisma, surely.
                          Yup! Thanks for the correction, I was getting nWoD and Exalted crossed in my brain.

                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist
                          It seems easier to wrap your head around it for front-line combat leaders. Basically, saying "follow me and do what I do," before leaping into the fray and beginning to reap the opposing line like wheat. Using it for Stealth... now that's tricky to explain.
                          Yeah, I'd say Appearance is very good at "lead from the front", much, much less so at "do what I say, not what I do". Though, of course, having a good Appearance is a very nice supplement to either of the other social attributes, since it gives you free non-charm dice against someone with lower Resolve, which is always nice.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            At base going by the Attribute descriptions, Charisma 1/Manipulation 5 is someone who can talk circles around you but is far less good at genuinely expressing themself or speaking their mind.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
                              Is it possible to still play a front man/woman/etc and just use Manipulation (you are probably lying to get people to do things for you, or using roundabout methods) or Appearance (your sheer animal magnetism is going to have people nodding sooner rather than later) instead of Charisma?
                              Very much so. In a good 90% of your social interactions you'll be able to use Charisma or Manipulation pretty interchangably.

                              The main reason why I suggested the behaviour flaw is that it helps you and your Storyteller remain on the same page for the character's limitations, the role of Manipulation and provides opertunities for stunts/expression bonus rather than waiting for them to veto the attribute selection.


                              Simple Exigent Guidelines, a work in progress

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X