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  • #76
    Originally posted by prototype00 View Post

    I’m trying to figure out why folk don’t like it?

    1. It’s optional to stunt and due to flaring you won’t see it all the time.

    2. It’s using a mechanic you would have used for the roll anyway (Stunting, just work it in as part of the description for the +2 d10 and the extra stat on excellency) Gives Lunars their own stunting bonus, really.

    3. It’s easy to ignore if you want to (ST just says you always bring in the other highest stat for max Excellency Calculation)

    And for those of us who want to Model Robert Downey Jr’s Sherlock 10 moves ahead Bartitsu, excellent stunt fodder. 😆
    Can only speak personally but the concerns that I saw are as follows.

    1. Not using limits you to only five dice max, (more likely 3 or 4 given how attribute dots are rarer than ability dots) Which feels pretty weak.

    2. The strength of the stunting mechanic was how broad of a umbrella it cast, this is lost with the excellency because you can't just stunt you have to stunt with a particular attribute. You are not just stunting once either. If you are fighting anything tougher than a bear you a going to need all the dice you can get which means stunting every attack and defence and coming up with new way to justify how your charisma helps you punch.

    3. well yea, if a player in my group ever wanted to play a lunar I would just let them add a second attribute for free no stunt required, still kind of annoying to do though.

    Though I suppose it is a bit of a moot point right now. With the kickstarter right around the corner we should have a more clear picture soon.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Calboon View Post
      1. Not using limits you to only five dice max, (more likely 3 or 4 given how attribute dots are rarer than ability dots) Which feels pretty weak.
      Considering that's how Lunar die adders always worked, they're no worse off than they ever were.

      Considering how previously, their means of increasing the die cap added Essence to the equation, and required a short-lived Charm to go into a berserker rage, they're actually a bit better off than they were before.

      It's an Excellency that can affect things that Ability Excellencies simply can't, like soak and damage, and it takes far fewer purchases to get a full set that can be added to any possible roll.

      How strong should it be?

      Originally posted by Calboon
      2. The strength of the stunting mechanic was how broad of a umbrella it cast, this is lost with the excellency because you can't just stunt you have to stunt with a particular attribute.
      You can still do regular stunts? What, should the upgrade be unlimited?

      Originally posted by Calboon
      If you are fighting anything tougher than a bear you a going to need all the dice you can get which means stunting every attack and defence
      That sounds like it will burn out your mote pool fairly quickly.

      Originally posted by Calboon
      coming up with new way to justify how your charisma helps you punch.
      Or any of seven other Attributes.

      Originally posted by Calboon
      well yea, if a player in my group ever wanted to play a lunar I would just let them add a second attribute for free no stunt required, still kind of annoying to do though.
      Oh, you do think it should be unlimited. To have a dice cap equivalent to that of Solars. For a much smaller and more broadly applicable range of stats.

      Seems a bit overpowered.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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      • #78
        Shall I just start another thread about the excellency specifically? Because otherwise it probably will **** all over this thread.

        Or should we just accept that and make this the Lunar excellency thread?


        My characters:
        Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
        Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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        • #79
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          Shall I just start another thread about the excellency specifically? Because otherwise it probably will **** all over this thread.
          What is this thread about at the moment?


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

            What is this thread about at the moment?
            I was about to ask the same thing. The original post was "I was in the playtest and it was awesome." We're nowhere near that now. Lunar-thread gonna Lunar, but yeah I'm not sure what point this thread is supposed to be serving at the moment to even get derailed from.


            I post Artifacts in this thread. How I make them is in this thread.
            I have made many tools and other things for 3rd Edition. I now host all of my creations on my Google site: The Vault of the Unsung Hero

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            • #81
              Well it was about when Lunars was coming out, and how awesome it'll be.

              If you come to the forum wondering when Lunars is out, and read a thread with people complaining about the excellency, it might put you off. (I'm very excited about Lunars. I don't like the excellency, or at least how it looks now, but it's the only thing so far I dislike. And I know others will like it.)

              I don't mind carrying on, but Equitable Remedy didn't really want to turn this thread into the "What do you think about the Lunar excellency thread" when they asked about it, and I'm trying to respect that.
              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 01-25-2019, 12:46 PM.


              My characters:
              Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
              Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                Well it was about when Lunars was coming out, and how awesome it'll be.
                A topic that lasted for about a page and a half over three days before dropping off for close to two months prior to somebody used it for generic Kickstarter enquiries.

                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
                If you come to the forum wondering when Lunars is out, and read a thread with people complaining about the excellency, it might put you off.
                Well first, I'm not sure that's much of an expectation to carry to a thread with such a non-descript title.

                Second, this sounds like an argument against having any contentious discussion about Lunars at all.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                • #83
                  If it's predictable that a stunt-based dice cap it will cause a problem for your group, isn't it pretty easy to simply adopt a different dice cap for your group and move on? "150% of Attribute", or "Attribute +3", or "Attribute + Essence", or "Attribute + Ability"?

                  I grant a preference for something you don't have to Rule Zero is valid. And having to Rule Zero something can be disruptive if the group has conflict over the necessity. But dice caps sure seem like one of the easiest Rule Zeros, unless I'm missing something.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Verzio View Post
                    But dice caps sure seem like one of the easiest Rule Zeros, unless I'm missing something.
                    I'd say there's a question about what an altered dice cap does to the overall power of a type, whether it ends up making the Excellency patently superior to other Charms, and how much a mote pool can support it.

                    Plus the matter of balancing the broader applicability of Attributes.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                    • #85
                      Yeah, it's hard to balance.

                      Also, house-ruling is actually, in practice, a bit of a hassle.
                      Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 01-25-2019, 03:22 PM.


                      My characters:
                      Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                      Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        snip
                        1. Never played 1st or 2nd Edition, were lunars fun and interesting in them? If so that makes me feel a lot better about the dice cap, I have only been comparing them to Third edition solars and DB's.
                        2. As for overpowered maybe? A lunar needs to spend twice as many attribute dots and twice as many bonus points to match a solar in a single ability and I have no idea if that is fair without seeing the rest of the charms

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          I'd say there's a question about what an altered dice cap does to the overall power of a type, whether it ends up making the Excellency patently superior to other Charms, and how much a mote pool can support it.
                          Obviously it requires a bit of thought, but how much more than asking, "How often did the devs expect the cap to be stunted up, and how much does that usually raise the cap?" I mean, if the answer is, "Pretty much whenever it's actually important, and by 4", a flat Attribute +4 is going to be pretty close to balanced, and miscalculation that leaves it at +3 or +5 isn't going to be that big of a deal. Heck, if Lunars itself doesn't have a sidebar of Storyteller guidance about how much/how often it's expected players will succeed at stunting up the cap, that's arguably a defect in the book we should yell about no matter how you feel about the mechanic.

                          I guess I'm mentally comparing this to 3e complaints like "I don't like the Craft system" or "I don't like withering combat" or "ugh, Wyld Shaping is messy" or "I need more mechanical bureaucracy system help!" Getting stuck with a die-cap-increasing mechanism you don't like is a valid complaint, but strikes me as far more manageable at the table. And it certainly isn't 2e lethality/perfects . . .

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Calboon View Post

                            1. Never played 1st or 2nd Edition, were lunars fun and interesting in them? If so that makes me feel a lot better about the dice cap, I have only been comparing them to Third edition solars and DB's.
                            Wow, that's a heck of a question. Short answer, yes they certainly had fun and interesting things in them. How much of 3rd editions DBs have you played with so far, if you don't mind me asking? Because the Lunar excellencies have very nearly the DB's cap, always. In fact barring the specialty bump it's equal. It's also way way more broadly applicable.
                            Originally posted by Calboon View Post
                            2. As for overpowered maybe? A lunar needs to spend twice as many attribute dots and twice as many bonus points to match a solar in a single ability and I have no idea if that is fair without seeing the rest of the charms
                            Yeah, attribute exalted have always been kind of unique in that regard because of broad applications of them. Consider this instead:

                            A super physical Lunar who's got high strength and dex and stamina, but picks up a charisma excellency with like 2 in the stat, so any time she rolls on a charisma skill she can add up to 7 dice as long as she stunts in her impressive muscles or graceful movement. So even with zero dots in socialize, presence, performance, or war she can get 11 dice as a base roll, including the stunt. That's a pretty big power cap for the investment of a single charm. It's true that you won't be able to stunt in physical stats for all of those rolls, but for any time you want to use war to command, or performance to dance, or presence to intimidate or inspire, you can pretty easily stunt it when you need it. You can also show off and flaunt your grace with socialize/presence/performance using dexterity to entrance your target, it's going to be ST dependent, but it shouldn't be too hard, especially if you're not doing it constantly.

                            The Solar mirror of that is somebody who has 1 charisma and a small handful of ability dots spread out among those abilities. To even catch up to the Lunar's 9 (before stunt) dice in those abilities, the Solar needs to put all of her social stats to the minimum requirements of their first charm, buy all of their first charms, and then bump her charisma up to 2-3. Admittedly they now have a utility charm in each of those trees, but they're also 3 charms, 2 attribute dots and a smattering of ability dots behind.

                            In that case you're not matching the Solar for raw power, but that's a losing battle anyway, you're never going to beat a Solar at being good at anything. You can, however, with a single charm purchase take yourself from "No mortal writeup in the corebook has as bad a (Charisma + Presence) roll as I do" to "I have a better (Charisma + {various}) roll than the glittering, bejeweled earth elemental diplomat in the corebook." So that's at least different from what a Solar can do in a unique way.


                            EDIT: Actually, that's part of the key to enjoying any non-Solar thing in Exalted. Never think "Yeah, but a Solar can..." because they probably can do whatever you can better, easier, cheaper. Instead look at the things that your character's splat does differently, like shapeshifting or broad excellencies. Or in the case of a DB a chargen Crane Stylist gets access to the first 7 charms, where as any non-MA-supernal gets access to 2, that's kind of cool.

                            If the raw power is really what you want though, you should probably just think about playing really cool Solar concepts, they're just dandy in most cases.
                            Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 01-25-2019, 09:36 PM.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                              snip
                              For DB I played about 20ish sessions I think? Across a couple of groups. I like them but (without getting too much of a tangent) their charmset is the thing that least pulled in my groups. It was their fluff and place in the world as princes of the earth that really sold them.

                              As for the excellency I agree it can be very powerful. I should apologize though my first post on the matter was unclear and I should of waited longer after getting out of bed. My main observation was less that the excellency was objectively weak and more that it could subjectively feel weak to a new player.

                              So how do you deal with a player who likes lunars but is bad at stunting very specific things like attributes? A lot of the players I know only stunt as much as they do because of how easy it is to work in a scene. If I told them they had to stunt in a attribute it would happen a lot less.

                              Also since I see I failed to make it clear in previous posts I do not think the excellency should be changed primarily because I do not know what a good replacement for it would be. My point on letting my group just combine attributes to get a higher cap was mostly tailored to the fact I know they are not going to use it as presented in the core.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Calboon View Post
                                So how do you deal with a player who likes lunars but is bad at stunting very specific things like attributes? A lot of the players I know only stunt as much as they do because of how easy it is to work in a scene. If I told them they had to stunt in a attribute it would happen a lot less.
                                I feel as though you're approaching the idea in a very narrow manner. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of stunts your players have already come up with would be valid for increasing the dice cap.

                                I mean, you talked about the significance of the Excellency in combat, and... is it really so hard to come up with descriptions for attacks that combine Strength with Dexterity?


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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