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  • #91
    Originally posted by Calboon View Post
    As for the excellency I agree it can be very powerful. I should apologize though my first post on the matter was unclear and I should of waited longer after getting out of bed. My main observation was less that the excellency was objectively weak and more that it could subjectively feel weak to a new player.
    Ah okay I can understand that.

    Originally posted by Calboon View Post
    So how do you deal with a player who likes lunars but is bad at stunting very specific things like attributes? A lot of the players I know only stunt as much as they do because of how easy it is to work in a scene. If I told them they had to stunt in a attribute it would happen a lot less.
    That could be a problem. As an ST I might loosen up what I'd consider an appropriate stunt for a particular task, if the player is really struggling just include the name of the attribute somehow in the stunt. It's hard to dial in though. If you make it toooo easy than the Lunar excellency is basically the Solar excellency except way better, which isn't really desirable. I think that when the Lunar book drops I might start a thread about helpful stunting and comboing different abilities into those stunts.

    It might not be quite as bad as it seems, honestly for attacks the only one I'm really coming up at a loss for how to easily stunt it in is Stamina. Maybe like, talk about how your character has fought so much in this battle and still shows no sign of tiring at all? But like Charisma, Manipulation, Appearance can all be used to Spiderman/Joker style distract your opponent while you hit them with a sucker punch or just frustrate them, Perception to notice weaknesses, Intelligence for a Robert Downy Jr. style fight analysis, and Wits for super reflexes.

    It's not trivial, that's for sure, and I wouldn't want to try and stunt it for every single attack, but when you really need to cut loose and actually spend a full half of your remaining mote pool into an excellency I think it's doable.


    It just occurred to me, there's another benefit too, you don't actually have to have any kind of good investment in an attribute to add it, so if you only want a cap of 7-8 you can switch it up to one of your lesser abilities. Being attribute exalted, at least in 2e, not sure about 3e, it was not uncommon for me to see players with like || PHYS:5/5/3 || SOC:3/1/5 || MENT:5/1/5 || as their chargen attribute spreads, and it just goes up from there. After a few dozen xp it would look more like || PHYS:5/5/3 || SOC:3/3/5 || MENT:5/4/5 ||

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    • #92
      The only actual problem I see is the possibility of your stunts getting stale (which, reminder, is explicitly one of only two circumstances under which you should ever not get at least a one-pointer, the other being droning on for five minutes), but that seems easily fixed by taking advantage of the 95% of actions you aren’t maxing out to mix it up instead of needlessly going for your highest Attribute every time. If that’s really not enough then I’d introduce the idea of a zero-point stunt: The action was boring, but still incorporated an Attribute in a sensible way so you get the dice cap benefit even without getting the +2.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        That could be a problem. As an ST I might loosen up what I'd consider an appropriate stunt for a particular task, if the player is really struggling just include the name of the attribute somehow in the stunt. It's hard to dial in though. If you make it toooo easy than the Lunar excellency is basically the Solar excellency except way better, which isn't really desirable. I think that when the Lunar book drops I might start a thread about helpful stunting and comboing different abilities into those stunts.
        What I hope to see in the book is a good explanation of how often a lunar player is expected to get the increased cap.
        It’s possible that mote constraints will end up being the main limiting factor in how often the lunar can really push their cap, in which case the gm can be very generous with awarding the stunts. I can also see the case where the stunt is the limiter (thanks to the discounts from animal shapes) in which case things get more complicated for the gm

        And then there’s the case of spending outside combat when more pools are rarely a problem and the flexibility of the lunar excellency could overshadow other players

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        • #94
          I think it'll get used less out of combat actually, or at least in a less powerful way, because a lot of non-combat rolls are a bit harder to stunt a second attribute into. Not impossible, but harder.

          For example, you generally have to be quite clear if you're using Charisma or Manipulation for a social roll. It's therefore probably a bit difficult to stunt a Charisma roll that's being boosted by Manipulation, but is still a Charisma roll and not a Manipulation roll. Most of the stunts you think of for Charisma are just... Charisma. (Stunting Appearance for Charisma is easier, but maybe your Appearance isn't very good. Certainly one of your social attributes is probably lower than the others).

          Or, let's say you're trying to understand a code. It's Intelligence+Linguistics. Most stunts you think of are just going to be about Intelligence. Stunting that in a way that's about a different attribute rather than just more Intelligence is a bit tricky.

          Or if you're making a Perception+Awareness roll to make out something really far away. The stunts you think of are probably just Perception stunts. Using Wits or Intelligence is pretty tricky. Using Charisma or Appearance or Strength... I can't think of much.

          Whereas, as Isator said, most Dex-based attacks aren't going to be that difficult to stunt with Strength.*
          (Although one weird thing is most Lunars are going to be doing lots of stunts on their attacks and defences that are not Dex-based, like "I smash him with a feirce blow" or "I tell him what a great time I had with his dad in the Blue Light district yesterday, then stab him when he's distracted", but not "I flip right over his sword" or "I move my swords at lightning speed." Because Dex-based stunts aren't as good as other stunts for attack and Defence.
          And of course, the Strength 5 Lunars who've invested in the charm to attack with Strength will do a lot of stunts that don't involve Strength. Probably not Dex either, since their Dex is low, but stunts about their speed and agility are the easiest ones to think of in a fight.)

          Also, I find excellencies get used less out of combat anyway. In social scenes people don't want to throw down 10 motes on an excellency, because pretty quickly you reveal yourself as a horrible Anathema, without the 5m a turn regen. And rolls outside combat are rarely life-and-death.

          Lots of "I spend 4 motes of peripheral" because you don't flare that way. But except for your attributes at 3 (which you may well not have an excellency in anyway), there's no need to get a bigger cap on most rolls.


          *Though I can see people's ideas getting used up and becoming stale. as Sith_Happens mentioned.


          Another thing no-one's mentioned is the interaction between animals and dice caps, and how Lunar dice caps change.
          My players are not great at dice caps. They get confused by them, especially when we first started playing 3rd ed (despite having played 2nd ed for years).
          Now, if they're turning into animals a lot, they're going to need to know their dice-capped rolls. You can't, after all, look at the animal's stats and know your cap.

          I think the best way for this would be for me to make them write down their maxed-out pools for attack and Defence. So say they have Dex 4 and Brawl 3, their capped-out number is 11.
          So, when they turn into an animal with 8 dice, they'll be able to buy 3 more, when they turn into an animal with 10 dice, they can buy 1 more, when they turn into an animal with 12 dice they only get to roll 11.

          But the Lunar stunting-excellencies means the cap changes.
          So say their cap is 11, and they try and attack with a 13-dice natural attack (Tyrant Lizard claws, etc).
          They only get 11. But if they do a +2 dice stunt in a way that's about Strength, they can add, say, 4 more to the cap, giving them a cap of 15.
          Now, they've got 15 dice (cap of 13, plus 2 for the stunt) and can buy 2 more.

          That, frankly, will confuse them. They're not idiots, they'll get it, but it'll slow the game down while we work it out. Stunts already do that, but at least they're kind of cool (generally. I got fed up with all the flips. I don't give out stunt bonuses for flips anymore). But this'll make it worse, and slow down combat more.


          My characters:
          Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
          Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
          Avatar by Jen

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Calboon View Post

            1. Never played 1st or 2nd Edition, were lunars fun and interesting in them? If so that makes me feel a lot better about the dice cap, I have only been comparing them to Third edition solars and DB's.
            Well, that's a big question (and the answer is yes, but), but in terms of excellencies specifically;
            2nd ed Lunars could add up to (Attribute) in dice. This was less than, well, anyone else except low-Essence Sidereals. But of course, their excellencies were much more applicable than Solar or DB excellencies, so cost them a lot less (as excellencies weren't free).

            However, they had charms that let you boost the cap for a few rounds/rolls to Attribute+Essence. They all cost a point of willpower.
            Relentless Lunar Fury was a Stamina berserker-mode that increased your cap (and made you berserk).
            There was also a social one that lasted a few rounds of social combat, and a mental one that lasted much longer but made you mono-focused on that task (so useful for stuff like Crafting artefacts).

            I would say this is probably more powerful than the old ones, but of course Lunar excellencies are no longer cheaper than Solar ones (they're much cheaper than DB ones of course).

            2. As for overpowered maybe? A lunar needs to spend twice as many attribute dots and twice as many bonus points to match a solar in a single ability and I have no idea if that is fair without seeing the rest of the charms
            While I agree that, due to restrictions of stunting and cross-applying attributes it's not as powerful as a Solar one, I would hesitate to compare them like that. Yes, it is very difficult to match a Solar in a single ability, but Lunars aren't about Abilities. Their raw max power isn't quite as good, but it's wider.

            In a Lunar's primary attribute set, it's very easy to get 5/5/4 at character gen. You can get 5/5/5 at character gen if you want. And that'll cover all attribute rolls of that type, not just a few abilities.
            (Lunars are very good at getting high attributes at character gen generally. What they're rubbish at is abilities. By Essence 3, most well-built Lunars have loads of attributes at 4 and 5, but probably 1 ability at 5 at most. Lots of abilities at 1 or 2 in my experience.
            My own essence 5 Lunar, Dr Soma, has attributes of 4/5/5/4/5/3/5/5/5. She only has one ability at 5, one at 4, 5 at 3, and everything else is at 2 or 0.)

            Now, in terms of this excellency, if you're rolling one of your attributes that's 5, and stunting to get another attribute to your cap, there's some chance it's another 5, and a very good chance it's 4.

            I'd say on their primary rolls it's pretty hard for Lunars to get a dice cap of 10 with a stunt, doable to get 9, and easy to get 8.
            For secondary or tertiary rolls it's pretty easy with the right stunt to get 6 or 7.

            One interesting thing is that the stunt-cap kind of self-focuses on getting a medium amount. If you have Strength 5, and everything else is less, then on your Strength rolls your cap is going to be 8 or 9. But if you try and seduce someone with your Appearance 3 and your sexy muscles... the cap is still 8, because on your non-Strength rolls you can add 5 to the cap by stunting with Strength.
            While I'm not a big fan of this excellency, one thing I do like is that it really helps play a character who's really Strong, or Clever, or Fast, and apply that to everything. If your concept is Snake-totem manipulator who's really good at tricking people, your combat stunts are all about feinting, your intimidation stunts are about looking scarier than you really are, etc (I don't know how you'd apply Manipulation to many mental rolls though).
            Or if you're a Monkey-totem genius (called Thoth, presumably), you'll try and come up with combat stunts that are about out-thinking the enemy, manipulation-stunts that are about knowing more than them, etc.
            I think it would also work well for certain kinds of Exigents. The Exigent of a god of strength who does Strength-based stunts for everything, for example.

            So that is another way that, while it's difficult for a Lunar to get to 10 with their cap (but not impossible), with stunts your cap is pretty much always going to be decent. Whereas, say, an Eclipse who gets on a boat for the first time in their life, even though being an Eclipse has given them a Sail excellency, might still only have a cap of 3.

            For Solars, it's easier to get the really big numbers on their main rolls, but they're not far ahead. They probably have a bunch of abilities at 5, but only 1 or 2 attributes at 5. So this makes it difficult to get high dice caps on areas they're not really invested in.
            Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 01-26-2019, 08:05 AM.


            My characters:
            Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
            Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
            Avatar by Jen

            Comment


            • #96
              This week.... Surely this weeek we will know of the Kickstarter! :maddened gibbering:

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              • #97
                Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
                This week.... Surely this weeek we will know of the Kickstarter! :maddened gibbering:
                So, I know I said I was pretty sure last time... but in the comments for last weeks MMN it was made pretty clear the next Kickstarter will be announced today.
                And going by the post on the Dragon-Blooded Kickstarter... the hype is real. here's hoping it's less than a full month until it starts.

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                • #98
                  Surely this time Trauma-Bear will make its epic reappearance!

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                  • #99
                    Per the Monday meeting notes, Lunars is next to get a KS and it starts 2/12/19.


                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_485_1538393298974_786[/ATTACH]

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                    • Sweet.
                      So that's what, 11 months after the DB Kickstarter? That's not bad.


                      My characters:
                      Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                      Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                      Avatar by Jen

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by karpomatic View Post
                        Per the Monday meeting notes, Lunars is next to get a KS and it starts 2/12/19.
                        December? What a long wait. Or are you American?

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                        • Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                          December? What a long wait. Or are you American?
                          American, its tuesday after next.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                            December? What a long wait. Or are you American?
                            International release dates. Americans get the Kickstarter in mid-February; Australians have to wait for early December.

                            Comment


                            • So presumably the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Mongolians and Iranians got it on the 19th of December 2002? This doesn't seem like a fair system.
                              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 01-30-2019, 05:12 PM.


                              My characters:
                              Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                              Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                              Avatar by Jen

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                So presumably the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Mongolians and Iranians got it on the 19th of December 2002? This doesn't seem like a fair system.
                                Well, they would have added a stretch goal to replace the date code, except that Onyx Path can't go back to 2002 to add it. Exalted doesn't allow time travel.

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