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So Lookshy has what like a hundred times the Concentration of Exalted?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by TaintedBalance View Post

    I believe that this specifically is not correct in 3E (note that I'm on the same page as you otherwise). On page 98 they specifically mention for having back to back kids, the 'leftover children', that "Even if she Exalts, the stigma remains to a lesser extent, with her bloodline baselesly considered inferior to that of her more esteemed kin."
    Oh. They added in a word from the version we got in the Kickstarter.



    Originally posted by TaintedBalance
    A quick reading of the paragraph following that could also be a source of confusion, since it notes that the progenitive potency passes on at conception, but only completely drains the parents. Honestly re-reading the section a couple times now, it's a bit vague, but with that quote above about the bloodline being diminished as baseless, I lean towards what is passed down is always same, as long as you Exalt to enjoy the benefit.
    Yeah, there's also still the sidebar at the beginning of chapter 2 that says how bloodlines can grow thinner through intermarriage with leftover children.

    It looks to me as though a whole lot of information around the subject is written as though the assumption is not actually baseless, and the addition of that word is completely needless and adds contradiction.


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      I mean them more to represent humans that can have Dragonblooded kids, like Kinfolk for the Garou. Like Dynasts.
      Not a bad term for it, just one that's historically meant something else.


      The Freedom Stone is back, help it to live again.

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      • #93
        It's what Holden called them in his Exalted vs World of Darkness thing that we're apparently not supposed to talk about cos the thread got deleted.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
          It's what Holden called them in his Exalted vs World of Darkness thing that we're apparently not supposed to talk about cos the thread got deleted.
          I know. Not my doing but most of the places where I've seen it discussed Holden himself quickly became the primary subject matter rather than the work itself and in light of that I can appreciate a stance of "no, not here."


          The Freedom Stone is back, help it to live again.

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          • #95
            Fair enough.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              It looks to me as though a whole lot of information around the subject is written as though the assumption is not actually baseless, and the addition of that word is completely needless and adds contradiction.
              Agreed. IMO nothing about progenitive essence makes sense if it controls your children's chances of Exalting without impacting the strength of their bloodline. You'd basically be saying that Exaltation tends to skip a "leftover" child but doesn't change subsequent generations. In which case, as Eldagusto noticed above, we're back to Dragon's Nest breeding camps like before, but with crops of DB grandchildren rather than children.

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              • #97
                I don't see how any of that is true. How well bred you are is a measure of how many mortal ancestors you have. It's got nothing to do with progenitive essence.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Blackwell View Post
                  Agreed. IMO nothing about progenitive essence makes sense if it controls your children's chances of Exalting without impacting the strength of their bloodline. You'd basically be saying that Exaltation tends to skip a "leftover" child but doesn't change subsequent generations. In which case, as Eldagusto noticed above, we're back to Dragon's Nest breeding camps like before, but with crops of DB grandchildren rather than children.
                  No, that still doesn't work. On a few counts.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                    I don't see how any of that is true. How well bred you are is a measure of how many mortal ancestors you have. It's got nothing to do with progenitive essence.

                    That's my takeaway as well. I think the sidebar at the start of Chapter 2 mentioning leftover children is a bit misleading because you can be a leftover child who does Exalt. Taking a pure eugenics take on bloodlines being inevitably diluted is problematic as well, but it's probably fair that the more mortal ancestry you have, the more likely you are to have a weak bloodline, but it's also a mystical/magical property. If it was capable of actually completely fading out, the Great Houses would likely already be in a lot of trouble.

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                    • My current headcanon is that if there was ever any decline in the strength of the blood, then it plateaued about a thousand years before the Usurpation with little to no attempts at conserving it by the dragon blooded at the time. They just married whoever they felt like.

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                      • Progenitive Essence is currently in a state of being fine-tuned, so discussion about it is probably limited.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                          I don't see how any of that is true. How well bred you are is a measure of how many mortal ancestors you have. It's got nothing to do with progenitive essence.
                          It's the strength of your bloodline, which is a function of how strong your parents bloodlines were and so on, and which also determines how likely you and your descendants are to Exalt, right? And progenitive essence says that when it is high conceived children are more likely to Exalt and when it is low they are less likely, right? And you personally don't have to Exalt to carry a strong bloodline, right? (BTW these are not rhetorical questions; I expect maybe we disagree on one or more? But they're my postulates.)

                          So if the two are independent, then when two high-Breeding people have a child when at a low-ebb of progenitive essence, that child is less likely to Exalt, but any grandchildren down that line are still equally likely to Exalt, right? Which doesn't make sense to me.

                          Whereas if Breeding is just the expression of progenitive essence "locked in" at conception, that low-ebb child's lower chance of Exalting gets passed down in the form of lower Breeding. So having children too fast diminishes the bloodline in the same way, and by the same mechanism, as having children outside the bloodline does. Which I like because it's consistent and not game-able. EDIT: Or at least, maximization would be a matter of finding precise numerical values for immeasurable quantities. I still call that "safe".

                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          No, that still doesn't work. On a few counts.
                          Doesn't it though? Wouldn't a bunch of coordinated, well-bred people be able to produce a large, low-quality second generation, and an even larger, high-quality third generation, well in excess of "normal" productivity, if Breeding travels down the line independent of progenitive essence? ("quality" in this case meaning "propensity to Exalt"). Because functionally that's what I meant.

                          I'm not saying this is good or right or desirable; quite the opposite. But the counterargument was always that it's a fairly sensible plan for a totalitarian regime (or the secret puppet masters backing the totalitarian regime). And all it takes to undo it is to assume that the "strength of your blood" that your children inherit is consumed at conception and has to recharge. Which is what it seems to me progenitive essence is doing.
                          Last edited by Blackwell; 01-09-2019, 03:31 PM.

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                          • A difference in breeding does not produce the mean of the two breeding levels. Two thin blooded mortals can produce a DB whose children will all have higher chance of exalting than any of the parents'.
                            Last edited by Exthalion; 01-09-2019, 05:18 PM.

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                            • My assumption is that a mortal child of a dynast at full progenitive potential is as likely to have a dragon blooded kid as the mortal child of an outcaste or a mortal who failed to exalt because their parent's essence was spent. The only thing that changes it is how far back your last dragon blooded ancestor was. "Well bred" for a mortal is about keeping that percentage of dragon blooded ancestors high and it doesn't matter how pure the bloodline of that ancestor was.

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                              • Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
                                A difference in breeding does not produce the mean of the two breeding levels. Two thin blooded mortals can produce a DB whose children will all have higher chance of exalting than any of the parents'.
                                Fair point, though I wasn't presuming mean, just "some function". Stochastic functions count

                                Or, to be more specific, your breeding is some function of your parents' progenitive essence, which in turn are functions of their respective breeding and time since their previous babies, if any.

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