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Dodge character Vs the undodgeable

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  • #16
    Honestly, I think the problem is with Obsidian Butterflies rather than expecting Solar dodge to paper up this hole. It's not like it would suck any less if your Dragon-Blooded character got torn to pieces by multiple undodgable attacks.



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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lioness View Post
      Honestly, I think the problem is with Obsidian Butterflies rather than expecting Solar dodge to paper up this hole. It's not like it would suck any less if your Dragon-Blooded character got torn to pieces by multiple undodgable attacks.
      Do you seen undodgeable attacks as more powerful than unblockable attacks?

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      • #18
        DoOB isn't that powerful, and Solar Dodge not having anything specifically against undodgeable besides SSE is kinda harsh.

        Dragon-Blooded aren't going to be as single skill focused as Solars might, lacking Supernals and generally needing to not rely on one combat niche as much, plus more likely to have decent Artifacts at start. Mediocre Parry, Artifact armor, and full defense is generally enough to keep DoB from a mortal Sorcerer from harming with the spell.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Therian View Post

          Do you seen undodgeable attacks as more powerful than unblockable attacks?
          I think the undodgable attacks we have are stronger than the unblockable attacks, due to a couple of factors.

          -The fact that Dodge tends to be an either/or proposition with most forms of armour (due to the mobility penalty).
          -The fact that most Undodgable Attacks tend to be ranged, which means they not only negate evasion based defences but also a good potion of dodge's roll in combat movement.
          Last edited by Lioness; 01-03-2019, 07:07 PM.


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          • #20
            Another issue with Undodgeable attacks on some level is investment wise; if you make an opponent who can throw out unblockable attacks, the Melee person can still hit them with their sword (Unless they're immune to swords all together), but if it's an undodgeable one, then the Dodge person can find themselves without recourse and with most of their charms not being useful; exacerbated by what Lioness was talking about with ranged attacks.

            Also I dunno about saying DoOB isn't 'that powerful', imo any decisive attack that is allowed to skip the Initiative System and go straight to lighting up your health track is dangerous.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Lioness View Post
              -The fact that most Undodgable Attacks tend to be ranged, which means they not only negate evasion based defences but also a good potion of dodge's roll in combat movement.
              How do undodgeable ranged attacks negate Disengage or Take Cover actions (aka Dodge's combat movement stuff), or Charms that enhance those?

              If my character tries to get behind a solid stone wall as they notice a sorcerer powering up... undodgeable has no impact on this roll, or the fact that unless the power also ignores cover, I can just... not get hit.

              Originally posted by Flare View Post
              Another issue with Undodgeable attacks on some level is investment wise; if you make an opponent who can throw out unblockable attacks, the Melee person can still hit them with their sword (Unless they're immune to swords all together), but if it's an undodgeable one, then the Dodge person can find themselves without recourse and with most of their charms not being useful;
              But that's a trade-off of Melee vs. Dodge that's always been there; undodgeable or unblockable aside. 3e has improved on making Dodge more useful (giving it some combat stuff that used to be Athletics) and having Dodge Charms (so far) by desired for more than just being more efficient or potent than Melee to make up for the extremely defensive nature of the Ability. But you still need some other Ability + Charms with Dodge because it still lacks offense.

              Also I dunno about saying DoOB isn't 'that powerful', imo any decisive attack that is allowed to skip the Initiative System and go straight to lighting up your health track is dangerous.
              The base damage on DoOB is actually really small in practice against PCs/NPCs built on PC levels, so any Hardness gets in its way fast.

              Consider a Dex 5 (this is a Dodge focused character, they kind of need that), Melee 2 (back up/need to attack too!), character with a medium sword and Artifact light armor.

              For an Essence 1 sorcerer, that Defense 5 isn't hard to hit, sure... but having to roll 9 successes to also get past Hardness is a bit more of a lift... and that's without anything like cover, Full Defense, Melee Charms, or Evocations on the defender's part.

              DoOB is great at what it's designed to do: turn mortals and battlegroups into pulp. It's not something that should be expected to gib Dodge focused PC Exalts unless they put every last egg in their Defensive basket in Dodge and Dodge alone; which is risky for far more than just undodgeable attacks.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                How do undodgeable ranged attacks negate Disengage or Take Cover actions (aka Dodge's combat movement stuff), or Charms that enhance those?

                If my character tries to get behind a solid stone wall as they notice a sorcerer powering up... undodgeable has no impact on this roll, or the fact that unless the power also ignores cover, I can just... not get hit.



                But that's a trade-off of Melee vs. Dodge that's always been there; undodgeable or unblockable aside. 3e has improved on making Dodge more useful (giving it some combat stuff that used to be Athletics) and having Dodge Charms (so far) by desired for more than just being more efficient or potent than Melee to make up for the extremely defensive nature of the Ability. But you still need some other Ability + Charms with Dodge because it still lacks offense.



                The base damage on DoOB is actually really small in practice against PCs/NPCs built on PC levels, so any Hardness gets in its way fast.

                Consider a Dex 5 (this is a Dodge focused character, they kind of need that), Melee 2 (back up/need to attack too!), character with a medium sword and Artifact light armor.

                For an Essence 1 sorcerer, that Defense 5 isn't hard to hit, sure... but having to roll 9 successes to also get past Hardness is a bit more of a lift... and that's without anything like cover, Full Defense, Melee Charms, or Evocations on the defender's part.

                DoOB is great at what it's designed to do: turn mortals and battlegroups into pulp. It's not something that should be expected to gib Dodge focused PC Exalts unless they put every last egg in their Defensive basket in Dodge and Dodge alone; which is risky for far more than just undodgeable attacks.
                Wooden cover is destroyed by DoOB, so you'd hope for stone buildings in that case.

                It's not necessarily about there always not having or having a trade-off, but Dodge also does a decent amount of ability to manipulate it's Initiative which is new. It's not about these always existing or not but acknowledging that they exist and that this creates different trade offs and observations.

                As for the damage, there's a few responses. A Mortal Sorcerer might only have Occult 3 or 4, and Int 2-4, so that's about 9 dice. A Dragonblooded will have quite a bit more, obviously, with their higher stat pools, Essence, and the fact that their Excellency lets you reroll failed dice. It's true that won't hit by itself as a mortal, or if it does it might not do damage, but if you just have one sorcerer standing in front of your group slinging spells, that's unlikely to really be how it would work; Thanks to DoOB's ability to only hit enemies, it's more likely the Sorcerer is going to throw it at your entire party while they're all also fighting, dealing with things like Onslaught and already existing wound penalties, which lowers the amount of dice on their defense or makes them spend resources to protect themselves. And if someone is crashed, their Hardness doesn't work, meaning if someone slips up the Sorcerer can quickly capitalize on it.

                It's not dangerous for someone just standing there throwing spells unprotected, but it's a powerful tool in a toolbox for someone whose smart enough to use it's strength and weaknesses properly.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  How do undodgeable ranged attacks negate Disengage or Take Cover actions (aka Dodge's combat movement stuff), or Charms that enhance those?
                  If you disengage from someone with a ranged undodgable attack, they can attack you... from range. Similarly anything less than full cover is a boost to defence when you're losing access to your primary form of defence.

                  I should note, I'm not just arguing mortal sorcerers and operating under the impression that in the situation Therian outlined there were multiple sorcerers casting.
                  Last edited by Lioness; 01-04-2019, 07:11 PM.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    The base damage on DoOB is actually really small in practice against PCs/NPCs built on PC levels, so any Hardness gets in its way fast.

                    Consider a Dex 5 (this is a Dodge focused character, they kind of need that), Melee 2 (back up/need to attack too!), character with a medium sword and Artifact light armor.

                    For an Essence 1 sorcerer, that Defense 5 isn't hard to hit, sure... but having to roll 9 successes to also get past Hardness is a bit more of a lift... and that's without anything like cover, Full Defense, Melee Charms, or Evocations on the defender's part.

                    DoOB is great at what it's designed to do: turn mortals and battlegroups into pulp. It's not something that should be expected to gib Dodge focused PC Exalts unless they put every last egg in their Defensive basket in Dodge and Dodge alone; which is risky for far more than just undodgeable attacks.
                    "Characters wielding ranged weapons such
                    as bows or chakrams cannot parry." - page 194 Exalted Third Edition core

                    That's a problem. Using archery or thrown forces you to put all your defense eggs into dodge.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Flare View Post
                      Wooden cover is destroyed by DoOB, so you'd hope for stone buildings in that case.
                      Fragile scenery is destroyed by DoOB, not all wood, and not cover specifically.

                      As for the damage, there's a few responses.
                      And I can always boost the defender here too. The point is that it DoOB is setup in a fashion that means it's harder to use on individual PC-level opponents than it is for them to defend themselves from it, even without Dodge.

                      And once we start adding in more characters on both sides, we make things more complicated and harder to say anything definitive. A PC group means you might have a sniper-archer out of DoOB's range to attack the sorcerer, and a parry-tank to Defend Others though that aren't. Etc.

                      You don't need to defend DoOB as if I'm saying it's a shitty spell. It's not. It's just not that hard to defend against for PCs. It's not meant to be.

                      My issue is people treating it like it turns a Dodge focused character into instantly dead.

                      Thanks to DoOB's ability to only hit enemies,...
                      The primary effect only hits enemies, the secondary dangerous environment hits your allies too... which might not be a good idea.

                      Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                      If you disengage from someone with a ranged undodgable attack, they can attack you... from range.
                      So... do unblockable attacks negate Athletics and Rush actions contributions to combat movement?

                      Similarly anything less than full cover is a boost to defence when you're losing access to your primary form of defence.
                      Parry and Evasion aren't terribly far apart at base value, so a +2 Defense can make up for a lot of that loss.

                      And you said "negate" not, "make less effective."

                      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                      "Characters wielding ranged weapons such
                      as bows or chakrams cannot parry." - page 194 Exalted Third Edition core

                      That's a problem. Using archery or thrown forces you to put all your defense eggs into dodge.
                      No, they limit which weapons you can use. Flamepieces can have bayonets attached and used for parry. Weapons that can be used with Thrown or Melee like knives, axes, and spears can all be used with parry as well. Brawl might need Charms or worn weapons, but with some investment can parry when your bow can't.

                      Oh, and you can still use armor and/or Resistance.

                      So no, you don't have to just use Dodge if you want to have defenses when use Archery or Thrown.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        No, they limit which weapons you can use. Flamepieces can have bayonets attached and used for parry. Weapons that can be used with Thrown or Melee like knives, axes, and spears can all be used with parry as well. Brawl might need Charms or worn weapons, but with some investment can parry when your bow can't.

                        Oh, and you can still use armor and/or Resistance.

                        So no, you don't have to just use Dodge if you want to have defenses when use Archery or Thrown.
                        Okay, this is simply ridiculous. Yes there are theoretical weapons which might be usable with melee which can also be used with those abilities, but among those precluded are short bows, long bows, crossbows and flamepieces (Firewands are the ones with the option for a bayonette) from archery, and chakrams, slings, boomarangs, and shuriken from thrown. That's a pretty big list of some pretty prominent and iconic weapons from those abilities.

                        The whole point of this conversation is about a dodge focused character and what they can do about deadly undodgeable attacks, so the answer really CAN'T be "Just use armor and/or resistance." For multiple reasons, one is that artifact heavy armor has a -2 mobility penalty for your agile dodge based character. Remember here that -2 is not taken from your pool, it's straight off your evasion. Nevermind that mobility penalty also penalizes all the cool nimble athletics based stuff that a really light character might be inclined to do anyway.

                        For resistance it's just a crappy answer that the melee guy gets to take an already really good charm to negate unblockable stuff from a tree that also gives some of the best attack charms in the game, whereas the dodge tree which is 90% defense and 10% mobility has to sink 3-4 charms and 3 dots into resistance.



                        The problems that I see here are that melee has an ability to make its defense always apply, even when it couldn't possibly, a very Solar thing to do, and dodge just oddly doesn't in spite of being way more focused on defense, and that even if it did, DOOB is a pretty powerful spell for an AoE attack if it hits somebody who can't bring their defense to bear. It's not wildly imbalanced, there are other things that I think are worse, but it's probably too good considering how good it is at other things. It becomes a much bigger problem if it's cast more than once in a combat, especially if you have more than one dodge focused character.

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                        • #27
                          The problems that I see here are that melee has an ability to make its defense always apply, even when it couldn't possibly, a very Solar thing to do, and dodge just oddly doesn't…
                          We already pointed out the applicability of Seven Shadow Evasion, how it doesn't care if the incoming attack is dodgeable or not.

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                          • #28
                            To reiterate.
                            My problem isn't undodgable attacks in themselves. It's with the closest thing the game has to a default attack spell allowing an attacker to deal exclusively in undodgable attacks that aren't targeting anyone specifically.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Therian View Post
                              Actually I just showed up for my first game and the Circle was going up against the nation of Ysyr Ana’s we ended up coming up against a bunch of mortal sorcerers.
                              Aren't mortal sorcerers supposed to be more rare than that in 3e? Specifically to prevent this sort of problem?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
                                Aren't mortal sorcerers supposed to be more rare than that in 3e? Specifically to prevent this sort of problem?
                                Normally yes, but Ysyr is a nation ruled by Sorcerers, so it has a much higher Sorcerer per capita value than nearly anywhere else.

                                That said, I’d still probably limit it to 1 to 2 Sorcerers per combat and add in some battlegroups and summoned demons, since they probably don’t field units formed entirely from nobility. I guess you might run into a random hunting party, but that should be fairly rare.


                                ....

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