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Dodge character Vs the undodgeable

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
    Aren't mortal sorcerers supposed to be more rare than that in 3e? Specifically to prevent this sort of problem?
    Rare is a relative term. Some places will have a higher concentration than most, and Ysyr is a city state ruled by a sorcerer-caste. If a circle is being aggrevating in the region it is plausable for several to rally together against them. Still, they'd likely be accompanied by troops and summons.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
      Okay, this is simply ridiculous.
      No it's a point that your statement is wrong. Thrown and Archery are not 100% exclusively reliant on Dodge; thrown especially.

      Yes there are theoretical weapons...
      Not theoretical... they're all in the core book. Also... all the Thrown weapons are one-handed (even if that's probably a mistake with sling-staff, but the sling staff should probably have melee for the staff part, at least optionally). Since.... shield and throwing are pretty common things one doesn't want to make impossible in the system.

      The whole point of this conversation is about a dodge focused character and what they can do about deadly undodgeable attacks, so the answer really CAN'T be "Just use armor and/or resistance."
      Well, Vance is still "iffy" not 100% on a few Solar Dodge Charms besides SSE applying, and frankly "iffy" is good enough for me to continue to apply them in this case to make Dodge less splat-happy against undodgeable attacks.

      Though multiple Ability Defenses is just a good move in 3e, even for Melee.

      And part of my objection is that the undodgeable attack being brought up? Ain't that deadly. It's nasty with a lot of other things in the caster's favor, sure, but that could be said about so many things without the undodgeable text.

      For multiple reasons, one is that artifact heavy armor has a -2 mobility penalty for your agile dodge based character
      You... saw me show how light Artifact armor is actually pretty decent against DoOB, right?

      And it's a two 1 Essence Charm investment in Solar Resistance to negate armor Mobility penalties completely. That's mote intensive, but I can make a starting level character that can run around in Artifact heavy armor with 0 mobility penalty if I want to have the soak and hardness.

      [quote]For resistance it's just a crappy answer that the melee guy gets to take an already really good charm to negate unblockable stuff from a tree that also gives some of the best attack charms in the game, whereas the dodge tree which is 90% defense and 10% mobility has to sink 3-4 charms and 3 dots into resistance.

      If you want to argue that HGD should be re-written, fine, but what the Charms for those Abilities do is what they do. The idea that "invest in some Resistance too" is some sort of bad thing is kind of a joke to me, considering how often it's considered a great thing to invest in for almost any character in a game with a decent amount of combat.

      As noted, SSE applies to undodgeable attacks by word of Dev already, so that's that. Some of the other Charms that could help Dodge are in the 'iffy' category... so take that as you want, but if you want Dodge stronger against undodgeables... take that as "yes if you want to do that."

      DOOB is a pretty powerful spell for an AoE attack if it hits somebody who can't bring their defense to bear.
      Good thing it's hard to sneak attack with Sorcery?

      It's damage pool against single targets is Essence + Threshold successes to land the attack. Getting to count Threshold on a decisive is nice, but for this it's freaking necessary for DoOB to even be a threat to Essence users.

      It feels like this conversation is a bit colored by "Solars with Sorcery" in terms of how spells like DoOB perform and at what level of investment. In the hands of a Solar? Yeah, it's powerful, especially with how much Solars can do by tossing motes at whatever they're good at since you get an Excellency and a spell for free if you snag TCS at start.

      A mortal sorcerer has to put a huge amount of their resources into it, and can't boost it to holy hell levels with Charms.

      DBs have to put a significant amount of starting Charms to get TCS, so it's also a big investment for them as well.

      And even then, it's only really good against 100% Dodge characters and BGs, which aren't something you want to count on being the only threats you face.


      Originally posted by Lioness View Post
      To reiterate.
      My problem isn't undodgable attacks in themselves. It's with the closest thing the game has to a default attack spell allowing an attacker to deal exclusively in undodgable attacks that aren't targeting anyone specifically.
      Why is DoOB the 'default' attack spell instead of Flight of the Brilliant Raptor? It's got better range, more reliable damage and probably higher damage, and a better secondary hazard effect.

      Most people reading the book are going to see these two as the core book attack spells and easily conclude DoOB = clearing mooks, and FotBR = trying to kill a tough opponent. Not, DoOB = take this first always because it ignores Evasion and hurts people that don't wear heavy footwear in combat. Parry and armor are plenty common.

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      • #33
        so do you think that DoOB's secondary effect is meaningful in that you have to wear shoes to avoid it or do you think it's not meaningful because you've posted both that it doesn't matter and it does matter.

        I think even with one Sorcerer, having the bodyguards or demons to run up and engage the opponents to keep them off balance and still be able to throw in spells without fear is very useful when you're also hitting several people at once, with Flight doesn't do, plus, again, DoOB not requiring Initiative. Sorcerers who are playing from the back and trying to avoid getting beat up are gonna have difficulties building up their Initiative unless there's a rule I'm missing, meaning that they can use Flight once, but then the amount of damage is going to drop pretty significantly. It'll still be a bit higher maybe, if you make all characters with Willpower 10, but it's still a wide AOE that, again, counteracts Dodge by making it unusable. And that means, overall, I'd rate the benefits of DoOB as being more useful if you're trying to kill a bunch of people because of that because of iit's unique characteristics.

        Of course, I guess the other question is what we are actually talking about here, as we seem to be bouncing around. Are we talking about what the best offensive spell to use on a single target who favors dodge in a one on one fight is, or are we talking about general spell use, or what?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Flare View Post
          so do you think that DoOB's secondary effect is meaningful in that you have to wear shoes to avoid it or do you think it's not meaningful because you've posted both that it doesn't matter and it does matter.
          I didn't say it wasn't meaningful, just that it's easy to compensate for. It's significantly less dangerous than FotBR's 4L, 5 diff hazard.

          I think even with one Sorcerer, having the bodyguards or demons to run up and engage the opponents to keep them off balance and still be able to throw in spells without fear is very useful when you're also hitting several people at once, with Flight doesn't do, plus, again, DoOB not requiring Initiative.
          "When you add these X other bonuses on top of the spell..." is basically conceding the point as far as I'm concerned. We've gone beyond. "is DoOB being undodeable a problem" to, "we've stacked so much in the sorcerer's favor it doesn't really matter anyway."

          Sorcerers who are playing from the back and trying to avoid getting beat up are gonna have difficulties building up their Initiative unless there's a rule I'm missing,...
          Have one of your frontline combatants use the Distract Gambit for you to transfer their Initiative to you when you're ready to cast again.

          Though spamming FotBR with base Initiative is pretty good if your WP is up to it, since you can get it above even heavy Artifact Hardness, targets can't afford a barely hit. They've got to make sure it doesn't hit/do damage actively. And be careful you don't target an NPC next to them to put them in the middle of a rather large bonfire (since it spreads to short range of the target and all, letting it hit multiple targets too).

          And that means, overall, I'd rate the benefits of DoOB as being more useful if you're trying to kill a bunch of people because of that because of iit's unique characteristics.
          Um... but that's the point? DoOB's focus is clearing BGs and mooks, FotBR's focus is on hitting someone hard. They have benefits beyond that, but my point of comparison is that DoOB being the 'default' isn't a position that really makes sense.

          Are we talking about what the best offensive spell to use on a single target who favors dodge in a one on one fight is, or are we talking about general spell use, or what?
          I was refuting the idea that DoOB is the 'default' attack spell, and thus it's undodgeable aspect should be treated with more weight.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post


            "When you add these X other bonuses on top of the spell..." is basically conceding the point as far as I'm concerned. We've gone beyond. "is DoOB being undodeable a problem" to, "we've stacked so much in the sorcerer's favor it doesn't really matter anyway."


            Have one of your frontline combatants use the Distract Gambit for you to transfer their Initiative to you when you're ready to cast again.
            These two statements are fundamentally incompatible

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              No it's a point that your statement is wrong. Thrown and Archery are not 100% exclusively reliant on Dodge; thrown especially.
              If you are an archer, as in somebody who uses a bow an arrow, because you wanted to be Solar Robin Hood, or Arjuna, or Atlanta or something, then you rely on evasion for your defense statistic. It's not like some weird edge case where technically this First Age essence laser gun doesn't let you parry, it's the single most common and iconic weapon of the ability. As well as any gunslinger who wants to be Vash the Stampede instead of Matthew Quigley.

              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              Not theoretical... they're all in the core book. Also... all the Thrown weapons are one-handed (even if that's probably a mistake with sling-staff, but the sling staff should probably have melee for the staff part, at least optionally). Since.... shield and throwing are pretty common things one doesn't want to make impossible in the system.
              I'm sorry, I mispoke here. They are real weapons that you could theoretically use, but in practice not everyone will be using them. Having a shield with your thrown weapons is certainly an option, and I think probably a good one. RAW it still doesn't work because you're wielding a thrown weapon, but I like it, I'd allow it in my games.

              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              Well, Vance is still "iffy" not 100% on a few Solar Dodge Charms besides SSE applying, and frankly "iffy" is good enough for me to continue to apply them in this case to make Dodge less splat-happy against undodgeable attacks.

              Though multiple Ability Defenses is just a good move in 3e, even for Melee.
              But I don't think HGD is badly written, I actually think it's great! A Solar is exactly the kind of hero who should be able to parry a flamethrower with his sword by cutting it in half with his blade and splitting the gout in twain around him. I just think there's an imbalance because the charm that lets a Solar twist their body through an impossible hail of butterflies is pretty much one use only in combat.

              The other part of it is that DBs, and who knows what other splats, don't have a way to remove undodgable/unblockable at all, which is fine because they shouldn't. It's also fine because other undodgable/unblockable attacks do things like deal (stamina) dice of bashing damage, or just deals withering damage, or is a disarm gambit.

              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              You... saw me show how light Artifact armor is actually pretty decent against DoOB, right?
              It is if you have a parry which is greater than 0, which if you're using a bow and arrow, it is. Otherwise you have to hope he doesn't have more than 4 damage.

              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              It's damage pool against single targets is Essence + Threshold successes to land the attack. Getting to count Threshold on a decisive is nice, but for this it's freaking necessary for DoOB to even be a threat to Essence users.
              *cut cut*

              Most people reading the book are going to see these two as the core book attack spells and easily conclude DoOB = clearing mooks, and FotBR = trying to kill a tough opponent. Not, DoOB = take this first always because it ignores Evasion and hurts people that don't wear heavy footwear in combat. Parry and armor are plenty common.
              Right, that's sort of the thing though. FotBR is supposed to be the spell for smashing single target characters into the ground with a huge attack, and DOOB is supposed to be for wiping out battlegroups or dealing a big swath of small damage, even when you don't have a lot of initiative. It also has a lot of other effects, one of them being stacking an onslaught penalty on top of everyone who gets attacked by it and as you mentioned the difficult terrain.

              It's kind of a problem, but not really a big one, when used a single time. If you're facing off against one DB sorcerer and he starts the combat with it and then you put him in the ground, that's okay. At that point your archer got cut down to his -2 health levels, which sucks since everyone else took maybe 1-2 damage, but it's not so bad. If you're fighting 2 DBs though, imagine you're attacking the Heptagram, or fighting a Solar who can shoot off 2 in consecutive turns, then it's a problem, because you have a dead archer and they didn't get any chance to avoid it. It's not going to ruin everyone's game forever and break the system over it's knee, it just is too powerful compared to it's other effects, and other similar undodgable decisive attacks.

              It's not like Arrow Rain Tempest, which is an essence 5 DB charm that requires you to spend 2 consecutive turns aiming, keeping 12+ initiative the whole time, and then you can make a big undodgeable AoE attack that can be used once per scene; or Blinding Nova Flare, which is another undodgeable decisive, except that it requires you to be in Single Point form, acting on the same tick as your sword, and roll a difficulty 5 gambit with the lower of your initiative pools and then attack with the higher, and then resets upon both gaining 11+ initiative, as well as not even being undodgeable for terrestrials. Compared to those it's an essence 1 universal charm that has no reset, and only setup requires gathering of sorcerous motes, which an exalt can do in a single turn, which can be the turn it fires.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Flare View Post
                These two statements are fundamentally incompatible
                This statement is fundamentally in bad faith and incorrect.

                The first is an objection to a premise. It is not incompatible with pointing out that within a different premise, there is a rule being overlooked.

                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                If you are an archer, as in somebody who uses a bow an arrow, because you wanted to be Solar Robin Hood, or Arjuna, or Atlanta or something, then you rely on evasion for your defense statistic.
                If you're playing Solar Robin Hood... why don't you have Melee too? He's kinda famous for swordplay and archery.

                Arjuna? Where's your familiar drawn super chariot to keep out out of range while your powerbow hits people from extreme distances?

                If you mean Atalanta? She was Athletics and Brawl heavy too...

                So, yeah, none of them are pure Evasion, even if they did use 'not being in the way' a bunch.

                And, of course, stories of myth and legend don't map perfectly into the mechanical realities of Exalted. Just because Arjuna doesn't wear armor doesn't mean picking up light Artifact armor or Resistance Charms should be tossed out of hand unless you are accepting the risk of getting hurt even by relatively weak decisive attacks by giving up on Hardness and damage negating.

                RAW it still doesn't work because you're wielding a thrown weapon,..
                It absolutely works RAW:

                "Thrown weapons don’t use the usual Accuracy bonus for their weapon class, and cannot be used to parry attacks unless they also carry the Brawl, Martial Arts, or Melee keyword."

                p. 586.

                So either there's a contradiction (wielding Archery and Thrown weapons negates using parry, but you can parry if they have the tags) or the statement on p. 194 should be read as, "you can't parry with those weapons," rather than "you can't parry at all because you're holding those weapons."

                If you want to take it to the Devs, we can... but it seems rather silly to say that having a shield in one hand, and a sling in the other, means you can't use your shield to parry, but if you had a throwing ax you can parry even without the shield as long as you don't throw it without it coming back before you get attacked.

                But I don't think HGD is badly written, I actually think it's great!
                Eh.. it's a bit clumsy to me with the three different options thing.

                A Solar is exactly the kind of hero who should be able to parry a flamethrower with his sword by cutting it in half with his blade and splitting the gout in twain around him.
                ... you don't need HGD for that. The Flame tag isn't unblockable. Mortals can do this with a good Parry vs the roll, maybe a stunt.

                I just think there's an imbalance because the charm that lets a Solar twist their body through an impossible hail of butterflies is pretty much one use only in combat.
                OK, that's cool, but that's a very different point that a lot of what's been discussed. If you want to say that SSE should reset easier, or not even have a reset, that's entirely different than DoOB is a problem because it's undodgeable.

                It's also why I think Charms like Rumor of Forms, or Vaporous Division should apply to undodgeable effects as they're written. Getting nibbled by DoOB isn't a problem if you can just buy off the damage until you can kill the sorcerer or get to a better tactical position with some Dodge enhanced stealth.

                The other part of it is that DBs, and who knows what other splats, don't have a way to remove undodgable/unblockable at all, which is fine because they shouldn't. It's also fine because other undodgable/unblockable attacks do things like deal (stamina) dice of bashing damage, or just deals withering damage, or is a disarm gambit.
                Just seems all the more reason to not make a Dodge only defense DB?

                It is if you have a parry which is greater than 0, which if you're using a bow and arrow, it is. Otherwise you have to hope he doesn't have more than 4 damage.
                That's why you switch weapons when you see a Sorcerer unleashing hell?

                If you're fighting 2 DBs though, imagine you're attacking the Heptagram,...
                Then you're at the point of DoOB not being your biggest problem, or if you haven't prepared for it you probably weren't going to win anyway.

                I mean, seriously, if you're talking about attacking the Heptagram, or multiple Celestial+ Sorcerers, or whatever, "can't dodge DoOB" is a hurdle you need to be able to deal with if you seriously want to win. Or if you're the ST you should no be tossing an epic amount of sorcerous might at the PCs if they can't handle it yet.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                  This statement is fundamentally in bad faith and incorrect.

                  The first is an objection to a premise. It is not incompatible with pointing out that within a different premise, there is a rule being overlooked.
                  So your premise is that DoOB caster has to win by himself but the guy with FotBR gets to have friends, then you go 'actually as you can see FotBR is better'.

                  A very wise and very fair comparison. After all, if the DoOB guy got to have friends with enough initiative to pass with a gambit, I could just point out they could just make a decisive attack instead and do straight damage, further lowering the opponent's defenses, while the FoTBR guy's friends are just batteries for him.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Flare View Post
                    So your premise is that DoOB caster has to win by himself...
                    No, my supposition is that adding in lots and lots of additional factors inhibits the ability to judge whether the undodgeable factor of DoOB is seriously a problem.

                    ..but the guy with FotBR gets to have friends, then you go 'actually as you can see FotBR is better'.
                    Nope.

                    If you want to invoke Exalted Forum Dogpiles Dissent, have the balls to just do it instead of trying to make it look like you're making a point.

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                    • #40
                      are you upset that you can't beat me by randomly jumping around to different, contradictory arguments and claiming that it's dogpiling? I have a lot of respect for you and that's rather sad.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                        Exalted Forum Dogpiles Dissent, have the balls to just do it instead of trying to make it look like you're making a point.
                        Stay classy.


                        “The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.” George Carlin

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Flare View Post
                          are you upset that you can't beat me .....
                          I'm not trying to beat you, the fact that you think this is anyone's goal is the only sad thing here.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                            I'm not trying to beat you, the fact that you think this is anyone's goal is the only sad thing here.
                            I'm just saying, you're the one trying to score points by cutting down posts to single sentences and 'countering' them by posting at times contradictory rebuttals within the same post, and now you're not even copying entire sentences. What's next, you're gonna take one single word out of my post and argue about it?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Flare View Post
                              I'm just saying, you're the one trying to score points by cutting down posts to single sentences...
                              "I have a lot of respect for you, but not enough to have paid attention to the dozens of times you've said that your posting style is something you do to help organize your thoughts effectively as a coping mechanism, and I'm going to hold that against you."

                              Right.

                              So, apparently I have to say this again. I post the way I post in response to detailed posts because I need to keep my mind in order to make sense. Don't like it? Tough. It's what I do because otherwise I come out as gibberish and then I don't post at all.

                              I have dealt with people saying it is inherently 'attacking them,' 'forcing them to respond,' 'inherently a sign of bad faith,' and all sorts of shit over it. I don't care. It's all underhanded nonsense to claim a style of quoting people means anything.

                              ...'countering' them by posting at times contradictory rebuttals within the same post,
                              Except they're not contradictory just because you snipped out the context of them. I don't feel like detailing how for someone that's making this more a fight than a discussion.

                              argue
                              If you want.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                                Why is DoOB the 'default' attack spell instead of Flight of the Brilliant Raptor? It's got better range, more reliable damage and probably higher damage, and a better secondary hazard effect.
                                Because setting fire to everything in short range of the target is an awesome way to murder your friends who want to be in melee range.

                                Originally posted by Heavy Arms
                                That's why you switch weapons when you see a Sorcerer unleashing hell?
                                Which might not even be possible as Draw/Ready Weapon is an action onto itself.


                                Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                                Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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