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Dodge character Vs the undodgeable

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    Look, I'm just gonna stop because you're clearly taking this as an actual competition to score points as being the 'winner' of this discussion, and that's not really what the thread is about, and I don't really want to get in trouble for derailing a thread. If winning an online argument is so important to you that you'll argue contradictory points and then act like you didn't, then ok.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Lioness View Post
      Because setting fire to everything in short range of the target is an awesome way to murder your friends who want to be in melee range.
      Someone just reading the text is going to see both of the core book attack spells result in dangerous hazards in the area around the target(s) - and neither spells primary effect hits your friends -
      and infer that these sorts of spells aren't really for firing into a melee with all their friends in range of it. Both spells are actually good tactically for helping corner enemies in otherwise open terrain by letting them create large hazard areas then enemies have to stay in/retreat through, or deal with your more close up fighters.

      Which might not even be possible as Draw/Ready Weapon is an action onto itself.
      OK, honestly, what's the point here? It feels like no matter what, you're just going to keep picking more and more niche situations...

      At what point is, "the character your describing has a giant hole in their defenses and you didn't plug it," rather than, "the mechanics of this power is a problem because it happens to be a perfect fit for that hole?"

      I mean, I don't see people complaining that Dodge has almost no protections once you get grappled and if you're play a Dodge focused character you have to make sure you don't get caught in a grapple so you don't get devastated by it... because that's what people expect to happen for a Dodge focused character that gets caught where Dodge doesn't help: they get hurt if they didn't invest in other defenses.

      This is a game where unblockable and undodgeable are a thing. When does, "I have no backup defenses if those come up against my best option," become a build problem instead of a system problem?

      Originally posted by Flare View Post
      Look, I'm just gonna stop because you're clearly taking this as an actual competition to score points as being the 'winner' of this discussion, and that's not really what the thread is about, and I don't really want to get in trouble for derailing a thread. If winning an online argument is so important to you that you'll argue contradictory points and then act like you didn't, then ok.
      If you're going to bow out, bow out without the sniping on the way out... it works better. I've addressed what your attempts to paint things as contradictory aren't because you've removed the relevant context. You're the only one trying to 'score points' with a bunch of distractions. If you want to get back to actually talking about things, we can, but it means stop trying to... score points by accusing me of doing so, and sticking to the topic.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Lioness View Post
        Because setting fire to everything in short range of the target is an awesome way to murder your friends who want to be in melee range.

        Which might not even be possible as Draw/Ready Weapon is an action onto itself.
        Also in my case I focused on Dodge and Archery thinking as a ability solely focused on defense it should be able to cover my bases as long as I had the essence. So my ability to parry is pretty lacking.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Therian View Post

          Also in my case I focused on Dodge and Archery thinking as a ability solely focused on defense it should be able to cover my bases as long as I had the essence. So my ability to parry is pretty lacking.
          Yeah, I don't consider that an unreasonable position and from what you've said it doesn't sound like your Storyteller was trying to put you in a posiiton where your defence was taken away.


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          • #50
            Let's try to keep the conversation civil, please.


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            • #51
              Originally posted by Lioness View Post
              Yeah, I don't consider that an unreasonable position and from what you've said it doesn't sound like your Storyteller was trying to put you in a posiiton where your defence was taken away.

              Yeah, we already talked about it. I run a weekly game of Exalted myself and had just never noticed it myself because none of the characters focused on Dodge. Adding it in a new charm or an upgrade or something seemed reasonable to both of us, but at this time I'm just not sure about the details.

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              • #52
                I think that Solar Dodge should probably have a more reliable method for plugging the Undodgable hole. Either relax the reset on SSE or add a charm that lets you spend init to remove the Undodgable keyword.

                That said, I don’t think Death of Obsidian Butterflies is as deadly to a dodge focused person as people think. Without extra banked Sorcerous Motes, the best mortal Sorcerer in the world is generally going to be casting DoOB once every three rounds and doing something like 2 Lethal Health Levels of damage each time (ten attack dice, 5 net successes+1 from essence for 6 decisive dice, which usually gets about 2 damage). That’s not fun, but assuming you’re shooting arrows back and/or you have allies, it should still be a winnable fight. You even have time to get to cover before they shoot it off.

                Adding in banked SM changes things, but after looking at the various methods to gain them in the Core, it seems like you can only really count on a 1 to 3sm drip or having 5sm for the scene. Which still means the mortal is generally going to be letting one of these off every two actions.

                A solar exalt, with the banked sorcerous motes, can probably let one off first turn, but would need to roll well to follow up with another one on their next turn. And, ok, yes, they can almost certainly kill you with two of these in a row...but they’re likely spending 20 normal motes per spell to do it (10m and 5sm into casting to fire it on turn one, 10m on attack roll to get 10 successes+1 from essence, so about 4 lethal health levels. Ow). Even though they get 5m back per turn that’s still 30 of their 46 motes out the window. They’re going to be at iconic anima level and they’ll be able to manage one more of these at best before they run out of motes. And there’s still a chance that the target can get to cover or something in the middle. And if the target is a Solar, they can use SSE on the first one or, if they bought an Ox-Body, have a nontrivial chance of surviving both shots.

                So, unless the Sorcerer is in a one on one duel with the person they’re shooting at, I don’t think attempting to spam DoOB is the best strategy, even if it does fit right into a hole in your target’s defenses.

                Yes, lucky rolls can boost those numbers up, but unlucky rolls can bring them down.


                Oh, also, as regards DoOB’s status as the “default attack spell,” in both previous editions it was both the very first spell in the Core book and the only ranged attack spell in the Core. As such, it’s become iconic to some degree. It’s also the first attack spell in the 3e book and, while I agree that a serious examination of the spell will conclude that it’s for clearing out armies, it’s also pretty cool sounding so it would not surprise me to find that lots of people grab it as their main attack spell.


                ....

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                  That said, I don’t think Death of Obsidian Butterflies is as deadly to a dodge focused person as people think.
                  On paper the biggest threat to a Dodge focused character is a Dawn Caste with Cascade of Cutting Terror who'll force you to use Seven Shadow Evasion before resetting Cascade and killing you while you're defenceless.

                  It's just that if your Storyteller actually goes through with making a character specifically to take away your defence I don't think the system is really at fault. Similarly, if they're making a sorcerer just to spam Obsidian Butterflies at one character until they drop dead DoOB isn't the problem.

                  My problem is that the sorcerer doesn’t need to target the dodge character to be that much of a threat to them. The Solar sorcerer spending 20m per round in your second example sounds like an idiot until you consider that the spell is a 20+ dice decisive attack with the potential to do a minimum of (essence) dice of damage to every enemy character within range which is pretty desirable for an NPC antagonist with a bodyguard. Unless one of them can’t parry, then they're going to be taking way more damage than everyone else and possibly die... that's rather less desirable.



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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                    On paper the biggest threat to a Dodge focused character is a Dawn Caste with Cascade of Cutting Terror who'll force you to use Seven Shadow Evasion before resetting Cascade and killing you while you're defenceless.

                    It's just that if your Storyteller actually goes through with making a character specifically to take away your defence I don't think the system is really at fault. Similarly, if they're making a sorcerer just to spam Obsidian Butterflies at one character until they drop dead DoOB isn't the problem.

                    My problem is that the sorcerer doesn’t need to target the dodge character to be that much of a threat to them. The Solar sorcerer spending 20m per round in your second example sounds like an idiot until you consider that the spell is a 20+ dice decisive attack with the potential to do a minimum of (essence) dice of damage to every enemy character within range which is pretty desirable for an NPC antagonist with a bodyguard. Unless one of them can’t parry, then they're going to be taking way more damage than everyone else and possibly die... that's rather less desirable.
                    That's a good point. Though, I'm not sure the spell is really useful for that until Essence 3 and you can be pretty sure you'll do a lethal health level to everyone you hit at minimum. But, yeah, if you can't get to cover or parry or something, a lucky roll could one-shot the dodge focused person or at least force them to use their once per encounter SSE on something that probably wasn't very consequential for everyone else. So, yeah, I can see a potential issue there. Still, that was probably the only Undodgable effect they're whipping out (well, unless one of them is a Thrown expert) so, if the Dodge person didn't die, they should be able to use their defenses properly for the rest of the encounter.


                    Hmmm.... Question. I haven't played with Dodge too much. How often do you use Reed in the Wind's cap breaking effect? Do STs usually struggle to hit you at all, to the point that Undodgable effects are pretty much they only way through your defense? If so, would allowing Dodge to negate the Undodgable tag more easily make it unstoppable? Or am I worrying over nothing?


                    ....

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                    • #55
                      IME Reed in the Wind's cap breaker gets used a lot... but only for +1, since if you couple with with Flows Like Blood and Force-Stealing Feint, it's basically free (and you opponents are still losing Initiative when they miss you)... and with Flows Like Blood you really need to keep your Initiative as high as you can (Plus Reed in the Wind is Perilous). It actually ends up with Dodge more on par with Melee using a Defense boosting weapon than bringing Dodge into the realms of "I need to add super big too-hit pools to touch them." Using it to sky rocket your Evasion against one attack is nice if SSE is off the table, but you have to be aiming to keep yourself at least Initiative neutral so FLB's bonus against lower Initiative characters doesn't get lost.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                        Though, I'm not sure the spell is really useful for that until Essence 3 and you can be pretty sure you'll do a lethal health level to everyone you hit at minimum.
                        For an antagonist it's more about the threat of damage than guaranteed output. Things are going extremely well if the defences of most of the PCs are comparable to the mote expenditure that went into the sorcerer's attack roll as that's a sign that this antagonist is holding their own as a threat to the entire circle.



                        The Freedom Stone is back, help it to live again.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Therian View Post
                          Yeah, we already talked about it. I run a weekly game of Exalted myself and had just never noticed it myself because none of the characters focused on Dodge. Adding it in a new charm or an upgrade or something seemed reasonable to both of us, but at this time I'm just not sure about the details.
                          I’m pretty sure I’d just make it an alternate mode of SSE that costs 4m and isn’t subject to the cooldown. Dodge-the-undodgeable isn’t worth a purchase on its own.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

                            I’m pretty sure I’d just make it an alternate mode of SSE that costs 4m and isn’t subject to the cooldown. Dodge-the-undodgeable isn’t worth a purchase on its own.
                            Yeah, after this thread, Dodge is feeling a little underpowered compared to Melee. Or maybe Melee is just OP in general, I’m not sure. Either way, I think giving SSE a 4m “Dodge the Undodgable” mode that ignores the reset, like you suggest, is the best way to do it.


                            ....

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post

                              Yeah, after this thread, Dodge is feeling a little underpowered compared to Melee. Or maybe Melee is just OP in general, I’m not sure. Either way, I think giving SSE a 4m “Dodge the Undodgable” mode that ignores the reset, like you suggest, is the best way to do it.
                              As a general statement, I really really wouldn't suggest you doing that. At the very least, I wouldn't suggest doing it without making it Perilous. In doing this, you make Dodge infinitely more powerful then Melee because you can no longer have a character who can be caught unaware, even while Crashed, while Melee still has that chance. This leads very much towards 2E's 'you are playing against the Storyteller and this charm is here to protect you' and the same edition's 'A Solar should never be on the back foot', where there's no chance of ever getting past a Dodge Solar's defenses with it, they have a permanent, mote-positive way to avoid any undodgeable attack.

                              Making it Perilous puts it on equal footing to the Melee charm, and is probably the better way to do it, but I think you were on to something with referencing Reed in the Wind, and think that attaching an effect to using a certain amount of Reed in the Wind or similar would be much more effective, because otherwise you're just making the abilities very homogeneous, which isn't very engaging.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Flare View Post

                                As a general statement, I really really wouldn't suggest you doing that. At the very least, I wouldn't suggest doing it without making it Perilous. In doing this, you make Dodge infinitely more powerful then Melee because you can no longer have a character who can be caught unaware, even while Crashed, while Melee still has that chance. This leads very much towards 2E's 'you are playing against the Storyteller and this charm is here to protect you' and the same edition's 'A Solar should never be on the back foot', where there's no chance of ever getting past a Dodge Solar's defenses with it, they have a permanent, mote-positive way to avoid any undodgeable attack.

                                Making it Perilous puts it on equal footing to the Melee charm, and is probably the better way to do it, but I think you were on to something with referencing Reed in the Wind, and think that attaching an effect to using a certain amount of Reed in the Wind or similar would be much more effective, because otherwise you're just making the abilities very homogeneous, which isn't very engaging.
                                Given that the "block the unblockable" mode of HDG ignores the Decisive-Only tag, I suspect it's also meant to ignore the Perilous tag...
                                (I can't think of any Perilous charm where the tag is the only reason it can't be used in crash, either they cost initiative which you can't spend in a crash, only affect decisive attacks which you can't do in a crash, or involve other mechanics that are already disabled in a crash)

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