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Dodge character Vs the undodgeable

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  • Therian
    started a topic Dodge character Vs the undodgeable

    Dodge character Vs the undodgeable

    Quick question: If you’re a character whose focused on dodge charms, what do you when you’ve got a bunch of Death of Obsidian Butterflies coming at you? I might be missing something but I don’t see an effect that removes the quality like Heavenly Guardian Defense. Is there a charm I should be looking to get to close that defensive gap?

  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by Calboon View Post
    Would you be willing to go into more detail on this? At essence 3 a lunar won't have access to this for the first 25 sessions of a game. In my experience that means for most groups it might as well not exist since no player is ever going to get it, so it seems wierd to use as a balance point on anything one way or another.
    If you treat this less like a dodge charm and more like a resistance charm that (coupled with a high soak) can shut down overwhelming on withering attacks for several rounds (as many as you have willpower), a lot of starting characters simply won't be able to deal with that because their Overwhelming is low due to their weapon selection and might not have an obvious solution to that due to their choice of fighting style and that's a really undesirable thing to do with a starting build.

    Similar Solar charms for comparison

    -Iron Kettle Body which only halves post-soak withering damage and depends on the opponent rolling 1s to do more than that.
    -Aegis of Invinicible Might which reduces post-soak withering damage by (Stamina) but doesn't come into play until after you've used Adamant Skin in response to a Decisive Attack then requires 8+m/or decisive attacks every round to stay active.
    Last edited by Lioness; 01-31-2019, 10:12 PM.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Damn straight.

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    I feel like “There’s no mobility penalty for being a Stegadon is the Exalted equivalent of “There’s nothing in the rule book that says a walrus can’t play water polo.”

    Edit: which is to say it’s a line that a Lunar says before transforming into one and then smashing through an army camp with impossible grace, not that it’s a stupid technicality that should’t exist.
    Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 01-31-2019, 01:33 PM.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Flowing Body Evasion subtracts the Evasion you applied against the attack. If you used the Excellency to boost it, you take that amount from the damage.
    Quite true (and if anyone's wondering if Isator is correct in his reading, he is, I asked Vance about it when the charm was previewed).

    If, say, you have Evasion 5 (Dodge 4 and Dex 5), and say "the sword goes through a hole that opens in my body, which then closes again in a flash of quicksilver; please Ms ST can I add my Stamina of 5 to the cap?" to get a +1 stunt, then boost your Evasion to 11, then yes, you're almost certainly taking no damage. Even if they do get 11 successes on their roll to hit, you take 11 off their damage successes and I personally have never done more than 11 damage in one hit (at least, not after Ruin-Abasing Shrug).
    And you don't even need to reset the charms.

    But that's costing you 15 motes, and then maybe a wp. It's not cheap. So in reality, you won't want to do that every round.

    So, again, I think it's good. Suitable for the Lunar's main "perfect" Evasion charm. But I don't think it's "Crazy awesome," because it's expensive (in both motes/wp, and I suspect Experience. It's possible it's near the beginning of a tree, but as it's an Essence 3 charm, I suspect it's not).
    Like Adamant Skin, Heavenly Guarden Defence and Seven Shadow Evasion, it has its strengths and weaknesses.

    Originally posted by Isator Levi
    It also still qualifies as a successful Dodge, for any other Charms that matters to.
    Indeed, and there will probably be some synergy there. It seems likely that Flowing Body Evasion sits on top of a defensive suite, though I don't know if it'll be an Evasion suite or a more general Defence suite.
    (Can anyone think of a Martial Arts charm that does something on a successful Dodge?)

    I wonder if Flowing Body Evasion will be the choice of Lunar PCs who want a very strong Dexterity-based defensive suite and are willing to invest heavily in it, and if there will be a cheaper, easier, but less powerful Parry defence with less synergy with other Dex charms.

    I was wondering if there would just be a Defence-based "perfect" and a Soak-based "perfect", since Lunars don't use Ability charms, but as Flowing Body Evasion is just an Evasion charm, I imagine there will also be a Parry charm.
    (Otherwise, I'd better invest in more Dodge!)

    I'm also interested in how a Lunar soak-based "perfect" will work, as Flowing Body Evasion is already reducing actual damage. But then, I guess so does Heavenly Guardian Defence, yet Adamant Skin still exists (and is fairly different).


    Originally posted by Lioness
    May also explain why the Legendary Size mote drip is necessary.
    Yeah, there's no mobility penalty for being a Stegadon. Combine your Evasion of 5 (or 6 if you really max it) with a Siege Lizard's soak of 20, and with Flowing Body Evasion you're not going to be very worried about Withering Attacks, as long as you can pay for it.
    But with mote drip and the desire to also boost your attacks, that's not going to last long.


    Originally posted by Lioness
    Willpower being the sole limit of SSE's availability created unintended consequences for the stunt mechanics.
    TBH, with lethality cut sensibly, being able to ignore the first 5 attacks against you seems both over-powered and dull, regardless of stunt mechanics.

    Originally posted by Calboon
    At essence 3 a lunar won't have access to this for the first 25 sessions of a game. In my experience that means for most groups it might as well not exist since no player is ever going to get it
    In my experience Essence 3 is a pretty irrelevant gatekeeper, because I've not seen an Essence 1 or 2 PC for years.
    (I'm going to say... 6 years? 7 maybe? Could be 8.)


    Which is not to say you're wrong per-se, but unfortunately, people's games are so different in terms of XP level, length, etc, that I don't think the Devs can really count on one XP level being most common in games.
    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 01-31-2019, 01:18 PM.

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  • Calboon
    replied
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    It's very powerful and (to me) a compelling argument why Lunars shouldn't have Supernal. May also explain why the Legendary Size mote drip is necessary.
    Would you be willing to go into more detail on this? At essence 3 a lunar won't have access to this for the first 25 sessions of a game. In my experience that means for most groups it might as well not exist since no player is ever going to get it, so it seems wierd to use as a balance point on anything one way or another.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Flowing Body Evasion subtracts the Evasion you applied against the attack. If you used the Excellency to boost it, you take that amount from the damage.

    It also still qualifies as a successful Dodge, for any other Charms that matters to.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Crazy awesome, it’s approximately Adamant Skin Technique if Adamant Skin Technique said “or subtract your (Stamina + armor soak) from the post-soak damage of a withering attack.”
    I don't think it's quite that good, although I guess it's close.

    Evasion ratings are much, much lower than (Stamina+Armoured Soak) can be.

    Our Solar has a Stamina+Armoured Soak of... I think 16? Something like that. So against a high-damage attack, that's reducing final damage by about 7.

    Evasion caps out at 6 if you really max it out.

    I have a Snake-totem Lunar with Dex 5, but as I use Snake Style my Parry is 6 and my Evasion is 4.
    I'm not intending to buy up the tree to get Flowing Body Evasion, because I just don't really use my Evasion that much.
    Potentially reducing final damage by 4 is very good, but not good enough that I'm going to deliberately lower my Defence by 2.

    Whereas Adamant Skin doesn't care if you use Evasion or Parry.

    And it doesn't cost Willpower.

    On the other hand, Flowing Body Evasion is Uniform.

    So, yeah. A strong choice if you're rocking a really high Evasion, but in my experience, Lunars rarely have high Dodge (by which I mean none of the Lunars I've played with; although obviously this charm may mean Lunars put much more XP into Dodge than they did previously).

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  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Do you mean that in the playtest SSE had no limit?
    A lot of charms had more than one playtest iteration and Seven Shadow Evasion was controversial due to it being a classic "you just fail" perfect defence and the aforementioned issues with Cascade of Cutting Terror. Willpower being the sole limit of SSE's availability created unintended consequences for the stunt mechanics.

    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
    How do people rate Flowing Body Evasion?
    It's very powerful and (to me) a compelling argument why Lunars shouldn't have Supernal. May also explain why the Legendary Size mote drip is necessary.
    Last edited by Lioness; 01-31-2019, 08:22 AM.

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  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    Crazy awesome, it’s approximately Adamant Skin Technique if Adamant Skin Technique said “or subtract your (Stamina + armor soak) from the post-soak damage of a withering attack.”

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    IIRC that conclusion was reached during the playtest (the original Ex3 one).
    Do you mean that in the playtest SSE had no limit?


    How do people rate Flowing Body Evasion?
    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 01-30-2019, 12:16 PM.

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  • Lioness
    replied
    Obviously, for the most complete picture we need to see how Lunars handle being Crashed.

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  • Therian
    replied
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    Also realised we've got a Lunar perfect defence to compare it to. Might be useful for fixing Seven Shadow Evasion.
    It’s good to have that as a reference. I had been wondering if perhaps there was a design intent to leave a weakness in Dodge but this indicates otherwise. Even if the developers have changed.

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  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    What, incorporate it into a general defence to remove undodgeable, and then pay a willpower surcharge if Evasion fails to just make the attack fail outright?
    I object to dodging the undoggable for so cheap without a limitation, Flowing Body Evasion has Perilous.
    Originally posted by Isator Levi
    Does it still have a per scene limit? If not, I think that might leave it a lot stronger than Melee and Resistance.
    IIRC that conclusion was reached during the playtest (the original Ex3 one).

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    Also realised we've got a Lunar perfect defence to compare it to. Might be useful for fixing Seven Shadow Evasion.
    What, incorporate it into a general defence to remove undodgeable, and then pay a willpower surcharge if Evasion fails to just make the attack fail outright?

    Does it still have a per scene limit? If not, I think that might leave it a lot stronger than Melee and Resistance.

    Leave a comment:

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