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What’s the over/under on Warstrider Solar vs Daikaiju Lunar?

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  • What’s the over/under on Warstrider Solar vs Daikaiju Lunar?

    Now, mea culpa I have not done a deep dive of the Warstrider rules in AOTC, hence why I am turning to you, my learned compatriots.

    Is the free use of all Charms (sans MA since you have to be in animal shape I suppose) equal in any fashion to Warstrider evocations and artifact weapons?

    Or does the Solar basically auto-win?
    Last edited by prototype00; 01-15-2019, 06:30 AM.

  • #2
    Nobody auto-wins a fight in Ex3 excepting a massively one-sided fight or trivial opponents and such. The tactics you use can make or break a fight.

    ​The Solar still generally has to have a pretty high Essence score to get to the more devastating warstrider Evocations. For instance, an Essence 1 Solar climbing into Cathedral of Sublime Annihilation won't have access to its reality-stabilizing cannonade or its implosion bow or lightning ballista, or even its targeting systems. Plus he's gotta power it with a hearthstone.

    ​Plus, we don't have the rules for Lunars yet. That seems like an important factor.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 01-15-2019, 03:58 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
      Is the free use of all Charms (sans MA since you have to be in animal shape I suppose) equal in any fashion Warstrider evocations and artifact weapons?
      Well, the Solar in the warstrider will also be able to freely use most of their Charms.

      It's really hard to effectively assess this match up, considering that we only have a full enough picture of one side of it. We don't really know what the capabilities and constraints of the Lunar that goes really big are.

      Mind, I have a feeling that when a Lunar faces a warstrider, their best bet is in going small rather than big; turn into something that the warstrider can barely hit, and then go for the gambits to break down its limbs and the like, rather than matching power for power.

      Still, that may depend on the build of the Lunar. Will it be possible to equip with capabilities that extend or complement a gigantic shape, a deep investment in which will make it advantageous against warstriders and behemoths? Iuhuh.


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      • #4
        Right - much easier to slip through the warstrider's fuselage as a mouse and then terrorize the strapped-in pilot inside as a tiger, than to just stand outside the thing and trade blows. .

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        • #5
          Hmm, I was ready to make a comment about it seeming as though, barring certain additional powers, going huge to fight a huge thing would hardly ever be advantageous, but then realized I wasn't giving due consideration to the benefits of Legendary Size, and mitigating them through having a similar size.

          That's how that works, right? I'll check my book later.

          It's a bit different for warstriders, since they're uniformly vulnerable to gambits to lower their function and mobility, and even expose the vulnerable pilot.

          Still and all, the right combination of Strength and Stamina Charms with Protean enhancements to a huge size... I'm more readily imagining how it could give a Solar in a warstrider a run for their money.


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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          • #6
            Here’s my logic for asking:

            1. While I am behind on Warstrider news, I have devoured any scrap of Lunars info out there. Being able to Daikaiju is one of the coolest things they can do E1, so I thought I’d ask.

            2. If going all Pacific Rim is the wrong way to defeat giant robots, I don’t want to be right (yes I know all the monsters in Pacific Rim got killed by hidden chain swords).

            3. There is a part of me that wonders (as Isator) if there is anything in the Lunar Charmset that lets them keep up with Warstrider Evocations at higher essence other than “Daikaiju form becomes basically free to maintain”.

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            • #7
              I mean, every splat gets something to keep up with Evocations at high Essence. They're called Charms. Between a Melee Supernal Solar and a guy in a warstrider, I wouldn't count out the Melee Supernal Solar very quickly, and likewise, I wouldn't put it past an Essence 5 Lunar to block a warstrider's punch bare-handed and then wrench the arm out of its socket.
              Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 01-15-2019, 06:54 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
                1. While I am behind on Warstrider news, I have devoured any scrap of Lunars info out there.
                I understand that one of those is free, but Arms of the Chosen is still out there to make one of those more concrete.

                Originally posted by prototype00
                2. If going all Pacific Rim is the wrong way to defeat giant robots, I don’t want to be right
                Yes, I meant to acknowledge the significance of temperament of character and player, and how one approach shouldn't be strictly inferior even if its main appeal was cosmetic (which it probably won't be).

                Originally posted by prototype00
                3. There is a part of me that wonders (as Isator) if there is anything in the Lunar Charmset that lets them keep up with Warstrider Evocations at higher essence other than “Daikaiju form becomes basically free to maintain”.
                That's not really what I'm wondering, but... What's the metric for "keeping up"?

                For that matter, it depends a bit on the warstrider in question; a Lunar will probably never really match the upper reach of Cathedral of Sublime Annihilation's long range destructive saturation, but outfighting that one in single combat isn't the most difficult proposition. Other noble warstriders get more specific, where it becomes a simple case of "these just aren't Lunar powers".

                For royal warstriders... on the one hand, they're Artifact N/A, by definition they have enormous power the likes of which the Exalted are hard pressed to match. On the other, while the Walking Devil Tower has the power to erase things from existence, you don't really need an equivalent to beat it into the ground.

                Be mindful of how the power of warstriders is often expressed in ways other than how hard they hit.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                • #9
                  as someone who hasn't kept up with the spoilers, I need to ask: can Lunars do Kaiju this edistion?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
                    as someone who hasn't kept up with the spoilers, I need to ask: can Lunars do Kaiju this edistion?
                    From Character Creation even! But it basically takes a whole bunch of motes and your entire mote drip each round to maintain. At higher essence (3 or 4...?) it becomes free to maintain with an upgrade.

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                    • #11
                      Just to clarify, what's been said is that Lunars can assume an animal form with Legendary Size. The Legendary Size animals from the Core are armored terrors, emperor sloths, ox-dragons, river dragons, siege lizards, tyrant lizards, and yeddim.

                      So more Jurassic Park than Godzilla.
                      Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 01-15-2019, 09:03 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                        Just to clarify, what's been said is that Lunars can assume an animal form with Legendary Size. The Legendary Size animals from the Core are armored terrors, emperor sloths, ox-dragons, river dragons, siege lizards, tyrant lizards, and yeddim.

                        So more Jurassic Park than Godzilla.
                        And warstriders are Guymelef size instead of EVA-01 size too. So they tie pretty well.

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                        • #13
                          The solar wins.

                          I'm not sure why we're supposed to be so coy about this.

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                          • #14
                            Yea like if you took a dawn caste and told them to fight a full moon that fights as a dino they are going to win hands down every time. Giving them a warstrider is just overkill.
                            Edit: Like the whole reason you would want to spend the insane mote cost on turning into a legendary size creature as a lunar is to get the legendary size merit.

                            Giving the Solar a Warstrider negates any benefit from that merit and gives them access to a spectacular set of abilities at a fraction of the cost. In a white room fight the only way the lunar wins this is if they have a massive essence advantage and the solar has like melee 3 with no charms.
                            Last edited by Calboon; 01-15-2019, 11:24 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                              Just to clarify, what's been said is that Lunars can assume an animal form with Legendary Size. The Legendary Size animals from the Core are armored terrors, emperor sloths, ox-dragons, river dragons, siege lizards, tyrant lizards, and yeddim.

                              So more Jurassic Park than Godzilla.
                              It's important to note that Emperor Ox Expansion also fell way short of Godzilla and that Legendary Size gives you more of a bonus for being large and powerful than it ever did. Speaking, as someone who was horribly disapointed with it last edition.


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