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Ailment-Rectifying Method: What am I missing?

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  • Jefepato
    started a topic Ailment-Rectifying Method: What am I missing?

    Ailment-Rectifying Method: What am I missing?

    So, normally when someone has a disease, they roll (Stamina + Resistance) against the morbidity each interval to see if they get better or worse.

    Normally, a doctor treating the patient rolls (Intelligence + Medicine), and the patient can use that roll instead of their own if it's better. Simple enough.

    With Ailment-Rectifying Method, the Solar doctor rolls (Intelligence + Medicine) against the disease's morbidity and adds half the extra successes to the patient's Resistance roll at the next interval.

    If you can succeed on a roll against the disease's morbidity in the first place, why not just use the normal treatment rules (by which you would already have succeeded, and allowed the patient to use your successful roll) instead of trying to add a bonus to the patient's roll?

    The Charm does allow the Solar to treat supernatural diseases and to treat their own diseases, which is fine, but the dice effects don't seem particularly helpful.

    (And as long as I'm on the topic...why is it harder to cure someone with Plague-Banishing Incitation if they're healthier?)
    Last edited by Jefepato; 01-19-2019, 01:00 AM. Reason: Minor punctuation error

  • Jefepato
    replied
    Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
    I don't think shortening the treatment is supportable from the text, and the next charm in the tree, Plague-Banishing Incitation, is the one that lets you immediately remove a disease, so giving that to Ailment-Rectifying Method would make PBI pretty redundant.
    Well, not really. "Less treatment time required to treat one interval of the disease" isn't redundant with "the disease immediately ends regardless of its current intensity."

    I do agree, though, that a plain-language reading of the text doesn't actually support shortening the treatment time.

    Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
    One benefit of the dice that ARM gives is that they're, if not non-charm, then at least cap-breaking. I assume that from the wording of the charm, which doesn't say anything about the dice being capped by the subject's normal limits. It would be kind of lame if the Solar doctor got 6 successes past the difficulty, and the ST had to say "Sorry, only two of those are going to apply, because this Dragon-Blood only has Resistance 2". So, cap-breaking dice are pretty good - it means if you're treating your Solar buddy with Stamina 2, Resistance 1, they can potentially get a lot more dice than they normally could add themselves.
    The dice pool limits are "absolute unless a Charm contradicts them" (page 252). As such, I'm pretty sure the normal limits do apply. The Charm doesn't need to say the dice are capped by the subject's normal limits, because that's how things normally work. (Solar dice caps apply even to effects used by other Exalted to aid the Solar, so I would assume the reverse is also true for other beings with stated dice caps.)

    ...I mean, personally I'd be inclined to let it slide. If the Solar's player seriously rolls 6 extra successes, I'd be perfectly happy to let the patient add 3 dice to the roll even if their own dice cap wouldn't allow it. But I don't think that's RAW. (I assume most patients are likely to be mortals anyway. Do mortals have a dice cap that applies to magical beings aiding them?)

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  • Kelly Pedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    Yeah it could both shorten the time for treatment and add the bonus to the next interval that they make themselves.

    I don't think shortening the treatment is supportable from the text, and the next charm in the tree, Plague-Banishing Incitation, is the one that lets you immediately remove a disease, so giving that to Ailment-Rectifying Method would make PBI pretty redundant.

    Personally, I don't find the "remember the dice you rolled" element of Ailment-Rectifying Method to be too onerous, but that's because, when it's come up for a bunch of minor NPCs, I've just relied heavily on average rolls. I just asked the Solar doctor how much essence she was willing to spend on each roll for things like Excellency, figured average rolls for each roll she made, and figured the NPCs' average (Stamina + Resistance) rolls based on that. Tracking exactly how many successes, and hence how many extra dice, were achieved on a particular ARM roll is something I'd only bother to track in the case of PCs or important NPCs.

    One benefit of the dice that ARM gives is that they're, if not non-charm, then at least cap-breaking. I assume that from the wording of the charm, which doesn't say anything about the dice being capped by the subject's normal limits. It would be kind of lame if the Solar doctor got 6 successes past the difficulty, and the ST had to say "Sorry, only two of those are going to apply, because this Dragon-Blood only has Resistance 2". So, cap-breaking dice are pretty good - it means if you're treating your Solar buddy with Stamina 2, Resistance 1, they can potentially get a lot more dice than they normally could add themselves.

    All that said, I do think that simply treating Ailment-Rectifying Method as a normal roll to treat the disease (that is, if your roll is better than the patient's, they get to use that instead), but without the need to treat them every day of the interval, probably won't break anything.

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Jefepato View Post

    That...could be right? When it says "the next interval" it could very well mean "the interval after the one for which you are currently treating them."

    On the other hand, although the Charm "represents an hour spent treating a patient" etc., it doesn't say anywhere that it actually shortens the time required for the normal benefits of treatment. So while it only takes an hour to add the dice bonus to the patient's roll on the next interval, it may well be that you still need to spend the usual amount of time (depending on disease interval) if you want the patient to be able to use your roll on the current interval.

    Or maybe I'm wrong. This Charm is a bit confusing. (Which is odd, because the rest of the Solar Medicine Charms seem pretty straightforward.)
    Yeah it could both shorten the time for treatment and add the bonus to the next interval that they make themselves.

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  • Jefepato
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
    Is it possible that we're all reading this wrong, and that it's implied that the (Intelligence + Medicine) roll is meant to be treated as the standard (Int + Med) roll for mundane healing, and the Solar doctor is just so good that their treatment even has half of the overflow successes apply on the next roll as well?

    That somehow feels more right to me, especially since the Solar's assistants have to keep up care in order to keep that healing essence hanging around, and also just half of overflow successes is often a pretty small pool to just be adding additional dice for. I mean it doesn't SAY that it is, but could it be?
    That...could be right? When it says "the next interval" it could very well mean "the interval after the one for which you are currently treating them."

    On the other hand, although the Charm "represents an hour spent treating a patient" etc., it doesn't say anywhere that it actually shortens the time required for the normal benefits of treatment. So while it only takes an hour to add the dice bonus to the patient's roll on the next interval, it may well be that you still need to spend the usual amount of time (depending on disease interval) if you want the patient to be able to use your roll on the current interval.

    Or maybe I'm wrong. This Charm is a bit confusing. (Which is odd, because the rest of the Solar Medicine Charms seem pretty straightforward.)

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Is it possible that we're all reading this wrong, and that it's implied that the (Intelligence + Medicine) roll is meant to be treated as the standard (Int + Med) roll for mundane healing, and the Solar doctor is just so good that their treatment even has half of the overflow successes apply on the next roll as well?

    That somehow feels more right to me, especially since the Solar's assistants have to keep up care in order to keep that healing essence hanging around, and also just half of overflow successes is often a pretty small pool to just be adding additional dice for. I mean it doesn't SAY that it is, but could it be?

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  • Verzio
    replied
    Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
    That works, but this still leads to situations in which the player is checking the math to see if the Charm is a good idea. Will adding a modest bonus to a large number of patients' rolls save more of them than just succeeding at the treatment rolls for a smaller number of patients? It's honestly hard to say unless you actually know the Stamina+Resistance total of your various patients, and are willing to calculate the expected results.
    It seems to me to depend a lot more on the disease than the patient's Sta+Resistance.

    If you have to deal with a lot of people with syphillis (morbidity 1, interval of 1 year), ARM is a no-brainer. Facing infected wounds (morbidity 1, interval 1 week), similarly go with ARM (unless your Int+Medicine pool is truly anemic and you especially need to save a particular patient).

    Against consumption, with a morbidity of 2 and an interval of 1 week, ARM is probably the way to go if you've got a decent Int+Medicine pool.

    With plague or leprosy (morbidity 5, 3 days/1 month), these are the cases where it gets hard to call unless you calculate your likely extra successes and their likely Sta+Resistance pools (unless and until you reach the point you can expect around fifteen successes on your rolls).

    Versus cholera, hemorrhagic fever, or rabies, all with an interval of 1 day, ARM on its own is useless, since it saves no time and is less likely to cure.

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  • armyofwhispers
    replied
    Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
    Are you not supposed to be able to treat your own diseases without the Charm? The disease rules don't say so. Personally, I'd allow it with a stunt.
    I would be very hesitant to allow a character to treat themselves. At the absolute maximum I'd allow them to self-treat a disease at the minor level. Any disease at the major level is simply too significant to allow you ignore it and continue on as normal.

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  • Jefepato
    replied
    Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post
    What do you mean it doubles the number of rolls required? If you're treating a patient normally, you make your roll and the patient makes theirs. If you use ARM you make your roll and the patient makes theirs (boosted by your roll instead of replaced by). Where's the extra roll?
    You're right, and what I said was phrased poorly (to the point of being inaccurate). Technically, both rolls take place either way.

    My actual point is that if a doctor rolls normally to treat a disease and succeeds, there's no need to actually make the patient's roll because it's redundant. If the doctor uses ARM, you need to make both rolls no matter the result. If there are a large number of patients (which seems like the situation in which ARM is most likely to come in handy), it seems like this would slow the game down.

    Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post
    I think that ARM is most useful to use on a character that would normally be fairly well placed to fight off a disease on their own or one who's average Stamina+ Resistance is just slightly lower than the diseases morbidity. It's a fairly cheap, quick boost to such a character, thus making it so that they don't really need a doctor's ministrations at all any more.
    That works, but this still leads to situations in which the player is checking the math to see if the Charm is a good idea. Will adding a modest bonus to a large number of patients' rolls save more of them than just succeeding at the treatment rolls for a smaller number of patients? It's honestly hard to say unless you actually know the Stamina+Resistance total of your various patients, and are willing to calculate the expected results.

    The Charm isn't useless -- as you've noted, there are certainly possible situations in which it helps -- but it still seems needlessly complicated when a straightforward benefit would make just as much sense.

    Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post
    The other BIG bonus is the solar being able to treat their own diseases with it. Otherwise a Supernal Medicine Solar would still need to dip into resistance to get charms to get rid of diseases that they contract.
    Are you not supposed to be able to treat your own diseases without the Charm? The disease rules don't say so. Personally, I'd allow it with a stunt.

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  • armyofwhispers
    replied
    Originally posted by Jefepato View Post

    You do have a point, but if the cost of treating so many patients is that you're only giving each of them a (probably small) dice bonus instead of just making them succeed, is it actually worth it? (Maybe in some cases it is, but you might have to actually do the math to figure out whether more patients would be saved with or without the Charm.)

    It honestly feels like the dice mechanic of Ailment-Rectifying Method was written without understanding the normal disease treatment rules. It doubles the number of rolls required, and I don't see what the point is.

    The Charm could have just been written as "3m, add one automatic success to a roll to treat disease, only requires an hour no matter how long the disease's interval is (also you can treat supernatural diseases)."
    Plague-Banishing Incitation could then be "2m, 1 WP, if you roll at least double the disease's morbidity on your treatment roll, the disease ends immediately over the course of a day."

    Besides, if your Solar doctor really needs to treat a huge number of patients, I can't imagine your Storyteller wants to keep track of the dice bonus you're granting to each one of them.
    What do you mean it doubles the number of rolls required? If you're treating a patient normally, you make your roll and the patient makes theirs. If you use ARM you make your roll and the patient makes theirs (boosted by your roll instead of replaced by). Where's the extra roll?

    I think that ARM is most useful to use on a character that would normally be fairly well placed to fight off a disease on their own or one who's average Stamina+ Resistance is just slightly lower than the diseases morbidity. It's a fairly cheap, quick boost to such a character, thus making it so that they don't really need a doctor's ministrations at all any more.

    The other BIG bonus is the solar being able to treat their own diseases with it. Otherwise a Supernal Medicine Solar would still need to dip into resistance to get charms to get rid of diseases that they contract.

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  • Verzio
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    Wait. An hour.

    For any illness?

    How do these doctors get any amount of healing done?
    They don't. They spend a lot of time with a handful of rich patients (who are the only people who can afford an hour of a trained doctor's time every day). Most people who get sick never get any attention from someone trained in medicine; caregivers meet their basic needs and the sick recover or not on their own.

    Which means the major difference between mundane medical practice in Creation and pre-modern Earth is mostly that the doctors in Creation are a lot less likely to kill their rich patients through trained ignorance.

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  • Jefepato
    replied
    Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
    The key difference, I think, is in the time required. Regular rolls to treat diseases require the doctor to spend an hour treating a given patient every day of the interval. Ailment Rectifying Method, on the other hand, only requires a single hour, at any time during the interval, and can then be maintained by assistants. That means that without Ailment-Rectifying Method, a doctor can treat at absolute most 24 patients at a time (by literally devoting every single hour to one of them), and more realistically, probably only 8 or 10. Whereas a Solar physician can treat that many patients every day, subject only to the number of assistants she has. That's huge.
    You do have a point, but if the cost of treating so many patients is that you're only giving each of them a (probably small) dice bonus instead of just making them succeed, is it actually worth it? (Maybe in some cases it is, but you might have to actually do the math to figure out whether more patients would be saved with or without the Charm.)

    It honestly feels like the dice mechanic of Ailment-Rectifying Method was written without understanding the normal disease treatment rules. It doubles the number of rolls required, and I don't see what the point is.

    The Charm could have just been written as "3m, add one automatic success to a roll to treat disease, only requires an hour no matter how long the disease's interval is (also you can treat supernatural diseases)."
    Plague-Banishing Incitation could then be "2m, 1 WP, if you roll at least double the disease's morbidity on your treatment roll, the disease ends immediately over the course of a day."

    Besides, if your Solar doctor really needs to treat a huge number of patients, I can't imagine your Storyteller wants to keep track of the dice bonus you're granting to each one of them.

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  • Accelerator
    replied
    Um.... ok.

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  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    For any illness?
    There's two answers to this.

    Narrative:
    Any illness important enough to be given screen time.
    Simulationist:
    Most diseases are within the patient's ability to heal themselves and in the real world a doctor's expertise is mostly being used to diagnose people and give them conditions for optimal recovery based on known factors.

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  • Accelerator
    replied
    Wait. An hour.

    For any illness?

    How do these doctors get any amount of healing done?

    Leave a comment:

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