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do the primordials embody their concepts or do they just represent them?

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  • do the primordials embody their concepts or do they just represent them?

    In other words if i kill SWLIHN do i weaken the very idea of order and hierarhcy? I believe that at least in second edition this was the overall implication but i'm not sure

  • #2
    I think this may have been true at some point, but by making creation they sort of off-loaded the concepts onto gods.

    Nowadays they're less the core pillar of a concept and more the prototype.

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    • #3
      Neither the Yozis nor the Gods embody anything but themselves.

      Exalted is fundamentally an existentialist game and setting in a very meaningful sense; existence precedes essence. The ideas projected onto things (like order and hierarchy) are just that- projections, not things-in-themselves.

      Now, the Yozis can get a little weird in this regard, cause they will be said to *create* things that, uh, can't be reasoned about as having been created in this framework- like creating sorrow so they could mourn, or the Ebon Dragon creating justice so he could cheat it. But chalk that up to mythology is weird; the things created, once created, are independent of the creators.

      Likewise, the Gods are just in charge of monitoring things; they make sure that grass grows, the sun shines, and birds sing- but without the gods, the grass would still exist (and probably still grow), the sun would still shine (but maybe the wrong color or too brightly or dim), and the birds would still fly and chirp- but their songs may get confused. You do not kill a river by killing the river god; you do not break the hierarchy loved by She Who Lives In Her Name by destroying her.


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      • #4
        Actually I think in 3E one of the defining qualities of the Incarnae is supposed to be that they break this rule. The Unconquered Sun really is the sun, and if he died it may well go out.

        But yeah, most other gods aren't nearly as vital for the thing they represent. Kill a god, another will soon take it's place, and up in heaven there's gods of stuff in general to oversee everything. It's hard to say what would happen if they were all wiped out, but creation is pretty much self sustaining now.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
          Actually I think in 3E one of the defining qualities of the Incarnae is supposed to be that they break this rule. The Unconquered Sun really is the sun, and if he died it may well go out.

          But yeah, most other gods aren't nearly as vital for the thing they represent. Kill a god, another will soon take it's place, and up in heaven there's gods of stuff in general to oversee everything. It's hard to say what would happen if they were all wiped out, but creation is pretty much self sustaining now.
          I don't... think that's the case? I just did a scan of the corebook regarding the Incarnae, and nothing suggesting that jumps out at me.

          Was this word of dev that I missed?


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          • #6
            A combination of "The Sun is The Sun" and the fact that that's kinda what Incarnate means.

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            • #7
              Killing She Who Lives in Her Name would not destroy the concept of hierarchy.

              Moreover, the Yozis aren't simply manifest concepts. They aren't Nobilis-style Imperators.


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              • #8
                Killing a Primordial wouldn't destroy their concept - but I suspect you're undermining one of their most active and dedicated advocates.

                So slaying SWLIHN doesn't destroy Hierarchy - but man, what would hell look like without all those hierarchy-enforcing-charms keeping the various spirit tiers in check? Plus I recall someplace suggesting that SWLIHN could be a patron or ally to the right Circle (in the circumstances where their goals reinforce Hierarchy).

                Same as killing Autochton won't destroy "invention" or "technology" - but it's still a huge setback. And I can't recall (if it was 1st or 2nd Ed - or perhaps a holdover from World of Darkness Autochtonia) where I saw Autochtonia having some passive technology-related bonuses (machines degrade slower; easier rolls for inventing/crafting; etc).


                Killing the Sun is an odd one. People often think of Apollo as the "Sun God", but Apollyon was merely the "Destroyer" - the negative aspects of archery (infection & death). Then you have Helios (the Titan) snuffing him out and the cult of Apollo-Helios claiming he was purified by celestial flame. THEN they flipped and expanded his domains (and upgraded Artemis/Selene/Luna since they're siblings). Or you have Norse myths of moon-and-sun eating wolves.

                Like, part of me thinks "it should be feasible to kill them".

                And part of me thinks "well, Apollo was never the sun to begin with, he's just an archery-god who got upgraded, so killing him isn't really that much of an achievement".

                But this is fumbling around mythology - I the only games in which I could imagine wanting to snuff out the sun are those that entail a big green replacement following suit. #HailTheReclamation


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Salagimsim View Post
                  Killing a Primordial wouldn't destroy their concept - but I suspect you're undermining one of their most active and dedicated advocates.

                  So slaying SWLIHN doesn't destroy Hierarchy - but man, what would hell look like without all those hierarchy-enforcing-charms keeping the various spirit tiers in check? Plus I recall someplace suggesting that SWLIHN could be a patron or ally to the right Circle (in the circumstances where their goals reinforce Hierarchy).

                  Same as killing Autochton won't destroy "invention" or "technology" - but it's still a huge setback. And I can't recall (if it was 1st or 2nd Ed - or perhaps a holdover from World of Darkness Autochtonia) where I saw Autochtonia having some passive technology-related bonuses (machines degrade slower; easier rolls for inventing/crafting; etc).


                  Killing the Sun is an odd one. People often think of Apollo as the "Sun God", but Apollyon was merely the "Destroyer" - the negative aspects of archery (infection & death). Then you have Helios (the Titan) snuffing him out and the cult of Apollo-Helios claiming he was purified by celestial flame. THEN they flipped and expanded his domains (and upgraded Artemis/Selene/Luna since they're siblings). Or you have Norse myths of moon-and-sun eating wolves.

                  Like, part of me thinks "it should be feasible to kill them".

                  And part of me thinks "well, Apollo was never the sun to begin with, he's just an archery-god who got upgraded, so killing him isn't really that much of an achievement".

                  But this is fumbling around mythology - I the only games in which I could imagine wanting to snuff out the sun are those that entail a big green replacement following suit. #HailTheReclamation
                  UCS is Apollo and Huītzilōpōchtli at minumum. With traits of other gods thrown jn(he keeps Apollo’s mice, but old canon included stories of Yi the archer, he likes human sacrifices, etc).
                  I don’t think killing the sun has been addressed this edition—2e had “if you kill the sun, Ahlat or Little Beam can replace him” in a book but otherwise nothing.


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                  • #10
                    Are the Shinma still a thing in 3e? Because they're the only ones I could really imagine as not existing distinct from the things they define. But...it's honestly difficult to imagine how you would interact with one of them directly, let alone make one stop existing, so I think it's kind of a moot point.

                    I mean, Nirguna already defines existence by not existing, so ...how would you even interact with that or make it not not-exist? It's like the empty set, you can't just ....remove that from math or redefine it to be something else, not without making math fall apart, so messing with Nirguna would do something similar, if you even could do that, but I really can't conceive of a way you could do that, not without massive magical BS anyway.
                    Last edited by BrilliantRain; 01-28-2019, 11:13 PM.


                    ....

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                    • #11
                      Also, several Primordials have been killed to give us the Neverbourn, so how would that work?

                      "You helped destroy the embodiment of a concept we can no longer remember or think about. Good work heroes. I hope."


                      We had enough of that with SWLIHN's hissy fit. (Hurled one of her spheres at Creation and destroyed ninety percent of its reality.)
                      Last edited by Greyman; 01-29-2019, 12:48 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Greyman View Post
                        Also, several Primordials have been killed to give us the Neverbourn, so how would that work?

                        "You helped destroy the embodiment of a concept we can no longer remember or think about. Good work heroes. I hope."


                        We had enough of that with SWLIHN's hissy fit. (Hurled one of her spheres at Creation and destroyed ninety percent of its reality.)
                        Up to 90% of reality. People really had no idea after the fact, but some scholars thought it was as much as 90%. Probably much lower.


                        ....

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                          Are the Shinma still a thing in 3e? Because they're the only ones I could really imagine as not existing distinct from the things they define. But...it's honestly difficult to imagine how you would interact with one of them directly, let alone make one stop existing, so I think it's kind of a moot point.

                          I mean, Nirguna already defines existence by not existing, so ...how would you even interact with that or make it not not-exist? It's like the empty set, you can't just ....remove that from math or redefine it to be something else, not without making math fall apart, so messing with Nirguna would do something similar, if you even could do that, but I really can't conceive of a way you could do that, not without massive magical BS anyway.
                          I think the term shinma not even being capitalized originally kind of shows how drift of their perceived importance might ahve been overblown. Kind of rembmer that in the orignal Fair Folk presentation, the shinma weren't for sure even real.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Blaque View Post

                            I think the term shinma not even being capitalized originally kind of shows how drift of their perceived importance might ahve been overblown. Kind of rembmer that in the orignal Fair Folk presentation, the shinma weren't for sure even real.
                            I also recall from a perilous answer that I got from the devs in the ask the devs section was that things like shinma and deva were not concepts they ever really had the intention of revisiting, or at least hoping that they wouldn’t, so I think it is being left up to individual tables to decide for themselves. But mostly I came here to post this terry pratchet quote:

                            WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN'T SAVED HIM?

                            "Yes! The sun would have risen just the same, yes?"

                            NO

                            "Oh, come on. You can't expect me to believe that. It's an astronomical fact."

                            THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
                            ...
                            "Really? Then what would have happened, pray?"

                            A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Blaque View Post

                              I think the term shinma not even being capitalized originally kind of shows how drift of their perceived importance might ahve been overblown. Kind of rembmer that in the orignal Fair Folk presentation, the shinma weren't for sure even real.
                              More than that was the way they were only mentioned in the introductory blurbs for each of the Graces in the Charms chapter.

                              I've always suspected that their inclusion in things like Roll of Glorious Divinities was a matter of a particular writer having become very enamored of their first appearance, and wanting to include them again wherever possible (a foundation that other writers picked up on for various things in and out of books).


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