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Evocations - Improving on Monkey Leap Technique without going too far

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  • Evocations - Improving on Monkey Leap Technique without going too far

    Spider-Man's web-shooters, Link's hook-shot, or Ruby Rose's Crescent Rose...

    There are various concepts for artifact weapons that are as much (or more) about traveling as attacking, but how does one compete with or improve upon Solar Athletics' Monkey Leap Technique without making it too powerful?

    A similar question exists for jade artifacts and Terrestrial Athletics Charms like Perfect Climbing Attitude and Incense Smoke Ladder, but at least there's room to rise before surpassing Monkey Leap Technique for accessibility, economy, and power.

    For the most part, mobility artifacts in Arms of the Chosen jump straight to "winged flying", flying right over the chasm of effects which are more like jumping.


    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

  • #2
    Maybe being able to jump 2 range bands over 2 turns without stopping? It doesn't make it faster, but it lets you cross big gorges, etc.


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    • #3
      If you want something on a weapon check out Horizon Cleaver, specificially the Evocation "On Wings of Deadly Lightning" it's a good basis for Thor flying with Mjolnir or someone performing a rocket jump.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by Lioness View Post
        If you want something on a weapon check out Horizon Cleaver, specificially the Evocation "On Wings of Deadly Lightning" it's a good basis for Thor flying with Mjolnir or someone performing a rocket jump.
        Sadly, this isn't what I'm looking for at all. It's almost nothing like Monkey Leap Technique.

        Web-shooters, hookshots, and explosive recoil all move you physically through space, and all of them are primarily about simple movement first, with any application on Rushing or Disengaging being an advanced trick.

        That's why I'm focused on Monkey Leap Technique, Perfect Climbing Attitude, and Incense Smoke Ladder, rather than Charms like Lightning Speed and Bellows-Pumping Stride.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          Maybe being able to jump 2 range bands over 2 turns without stopping?
          Monkey Leap Technique costs 2 motes and becomes 1 mote cheaper after the first use in a row, so spending two rounds either ascending two range bands or horizontally crossing two range bands of difficult terrain would only cost 3 motes total, and none of it is committed, so mote-regen covers it.

          Unlike Incense Smoke Ladder, which is 3 committed motes each round, which really cuts into your respiration.

          Monkey Leap Technique has no prerequisites and has 2/1 minimums.

          There's also Soaring Crane Leap for drifting one horizontal range band per range band you fall (?), and Unbound Eagle Approach for doing something even better than that? The rules are a little unclear.


          It doesn't make it faster, but it lets you cross big gorges, etc.
          That wouldn't be a problem, since I'm not precisely looking for "faster". Just something better than either "totally redundant" or "overpowered".



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          • #6
            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
            Web-shooters, hookshots, and explosive recoil all move you physically through space, and all of them are primarily about simple movement first, with any application on Rushing or Disengaging being an advanced trick.
            9 times out of 10 I'd have the progression the other way around for an artifact weapon. You can do stuff with actions taken during combat that reflects them being difficult to pull off successfully coupled with the fact that you're probably going to be opposed by someone, while outside combat similar feats of movement are often simply a matter of spending motes.
            The latter can be argued as the reflection of mastery and mitigates how much you're going to be stepping on Athletics' toes.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
              Spider-Man's web-shooters, Link's hook-shot, or Ruby Rose's Crescent Rose...

              There are various concepts for artifact weapons that are as much (or more) about traveling as attacking, but how does one compete with or improve upon Solar Athletics' Monkey Leap Technique without making it too powerful?

              A similar question exists for jade artifacts and Terrestrial Athletics Charms like Perfect Climbing Attitude and Incense Smoke Ladder, but at least there's room to rise before surpassing Monkey Leap Technique for accessibility, economy, and power.

              For the most part, mobility artifacts in Arms of the Chosen jump straight to "winged flying", flying right over the chasm of effects which are more like jumping.
              Spider-Man's Web-shooters and Link's Hook-shot aren't really the same as the Crescent Rose as it's been explained to me. Those two themselves are also distinct in how they're presented.

              the Webshooters are traversal first, weapon second. If you were making those, I wouldn't even give them a weapon statline; I'd focus them entirely on their traversal mechanics and then offer a few Evocations related to using the shooters for combat to tie someone up or similar. In doing so, this would clarify their focus primarily on being a Traversal mechanic, offering things like letting you use Monkey-leap technique in mid-air instead of having to land by paying an additional mote, the ability to rush from mid air or similar by slingshotting yourself, and the like..

              The Hookshot is focused on solving puzzles, and it's ability to let Link traverse the world is an outgrowth of that aspect, not the basis of it. This is very different from the Webshooters, because while the Webshooters focus on moving Spiderman and being the main mechanism for Traversal, the Hookshot is instead used to move things around and is very rarely used as the primary method of locomotion (the double clawshot from TP being pretty close to exactly the Webshooters excluded). With the Hookshot, I would make Evocations that focus on the movement aspect. Rather then it being an object you can chain into activations like the Webshooters being used as a consistent, effectively 'always on' form of transportation, I would instead make it's actions Simple, or in some way more restricted. Rather then bouncing around, for instance, this Hookshot might have a charm to let you grab something and pull it to you, and then an expansion to pull someone to you as a gambit. Then a similar pair of abilities to let you use it to pull yourself to something, followed by a gambit to pull you to someone, possible as a repurchase to the first charm rather then a full one. Included in this would be stuff like disarm actions as well, using the Hookshot to grab and pull something away from someone else. Again, I wouldn't even consider making the Hookshot a Weapon in the traditional sense, but rather an artifact that has some combat applications.

              The Crescent Rose's locomotion, as was explained to me, is using the recoil of the gun to propel oneself. This fits pretty well within the evocations of bows already active, as a sidepart to a more combat focused weapon.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Flare View Post
                offering things like letting you use Monkey-leap technique in mid-air instead of having to land by paying an additional mote, the ability to rush from mid air or similar by slingshotting yourself, and the like...
                Oh, I like those.


                the double clawshot from TP being pretty close to exactly the Webshooters excluded
                This is what I had in mind, though, because I was thinking of a pair of razor claws that could shoot out the claws on a chain. Much more of a weapon than Link's hook shot normally is, but I didn't have another example in mind.

                I'd still want the "drag myself into a new range band" Evocation to precede any "gain a bonus to movement action rolls" Evocation.


                The Crescent Rose's locomotion, as was explained to me, is using the recoil of the gun to propel oneself. This fits pretty well within the evocations of bows already active, as a sidepart to a more combat focused weapon.
                There's still the aspect that Crescent Rose can and has been used to leap up great heights, leap across distances, and break a long fall. So, I still return to "how do I Monkey Leap when Monkey Leap is right there?"


                Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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                • #9
                  Take inspiration from other similar effects.
                  "This gives you an ability equivalent to X Solar charm, possibly at a slightly increased price or reduced applicability. If you HAVE that Solar charm, it instead makes that charm better! Yay!"
                  See: Sozen giving you one of the four uses of Seasoned Criminal Method.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Meianno Yuurei View Post
                    Take inspiration from other similar effects.
                    "This gives you an ability equivalent to X Solar charm, possibly at a slightly increased price or reduced applicability. If you HAVE that Solar charm, it instead makes that charm better! Yay!"
                    See: Sozen giving you one of the four uses of Seasoned Criminal Method.
                    So we’re back to my question of how you make Monkey Leap Technique better without making it too good?


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                    • #11
                      Make it Reflexive so that it can be used without counting as the character's movement.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        Oh, I like those.



                        This is what I had in mind, though, because I was thinking of a pair of razor claws that could shoot out the claws on a chain. Much more of a weapon than Link's hook shot normally is, but I didn't have another example in mind.

                        I'd still want the "drag myself into a new range band" Evocation to precede any "gain a bonus to movement action rolls" Evocation.



                        There's still the aspect that Crescent Rose can and has been used to leap up great heights, leap across distances, and break a long fall. So, I still return to "how do I Monkey Leap when Monkey Leap is right there?"
                        by taking advantage of the fact it's a weapon and what that means in the context of the system.

                        You don't want a copy of Monkey Leap Technique, but you do want it to do things similar to it. But by the logic of having this weapon, you're already investing more into it (not just the 10xp Evocation versus 8xp Charm) to get it's effect. So let's dig into it a little deeper. How do you differentiate something? Obviously you give it new mechanics or fun mechanics; you find a way for the new evocation to be Fun, even if it might not be Optimal, or maybe it's a little too good, because you're taking into account the cost of needing the weapon, needing to learn pre-requisite charms, and the investment of having to purchase the weapon at Chargen instead of just buying a charm.

                        So, for instance, a hypothetical Crescent Rose leap technique should do something that Monkey Leap Technique doesn't do, rather then just being the charm but in a different container. And since it's a weapon and thus it should be more martially inclined, why not add another effect to it? Then, by raising the cost slightly, you have come up with an effect that's more powerful then Monkey Leap Technique, but costs a bit more; appropriate for using a weapon in a way that maybe isn't intended.

                        For instance, what if the Crescent Rose's leap ability cost 3 motes, couldn't be chained, but, when you used it, you gained 3 Initiative to represent using the weapon in an unusual way to gain an element of surprise and increase your standing in combat. That's where I would start at least. And since this isn't perfect or exact and it wouldn't be published in a real book without some testing, I'd be fine to edit it sometimes depending on what the response is. If my player or I find that it's too easy to constantly spam these jumps every turn for no benefit other then the Initiative and that's worth a cost of 3 motes, then I'd think about increasing the cost 1 mote, or making it so it can only be used once until you build Initiative to 12 or higher, or things like that.

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                        • #13
                          For at least Crescent Rose, you could have it turn the ground you jumped from into difficult terrain, or make people around you have to perform balance checks.

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                          • #14
                            Exploiting a gun's recoil to move around could impose an ammunition check instead of costing motes?


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                              Exploiting a gun's recoil to move around could impose an ammunition check instead of costing motes?
                              I would have it call for an ammunition check after (Essence) uses in that case.

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